South Africa 76-01
1. SA76-01 Gururaj: -- answers today will depend entirely upon the level of questions. So, if you want your questions to be deeply philosophical, you’ll get deeply philosophical answers. If your questions – we can discuss anything actually because everything in life affects the art of living. So please do not hesitate, do not think that a question is very small or it’s too big. Life has ranged through all various levels and as I said, every aspect of life affects us and every aspect of life therefore should be discussed. Good. Start. Public: Gururaj, Gururaj: Um -hmm Public: Let us begin by asking a question which I think is very poignant to most people. In the west generally, one finds many many people have the idea that spiritual life and material life are two separate entities, but to have material values and to have spiritual values are incompatible principles. And if wonder if you could -- Gururaj: Now that – that is definitely a misconception. You – a human being is composed of three selves, you have the physical self, you have the mental self and the spiritual self and you could never divorce them from each other. Each one forms an integral part of the other. The three bodies, the three aspects of man is just a different set of vibrations with a different degree of solidification. The spiritual self is of course at its subtlest while the physical self is at its grossest. As I was giving an analogy to someone recently, let us take a picture where you find – you take a colour green, you’d find it very gross, very deep at one level while the same green, to take it finer – finer would be very subtle at the other level. So it is one composite whole and that comprises the whole, the entire universe. We know that the body can never exist without the mind and the body and mind can never exist without the subtle energy which is the spirit. So it is impossible to separate them from each other. We use these terms, the physical, mental and the spiritual for the sake of convenience, for the sake of discussing the matter. But even in the most physical thing, you would find the spiritual permeating. Now to make the physical and material life better, what we do is try and let the subtle self or ourselves, the spiritual self become deeper and deeper in the material side, in the physical side and thereby it enhances the physical self, it enhances the mental self and that is the purpose of meditation where we activate the subtlest level of ourselves. First, what we do in meditation, we find that beautiful relaxation of the body, the dropping of the metabolic rate of course signifies that the muscles and the mind is at a certain rest and when that is at a certain rest, it gives a chance for the spiritual aspect of man to – to come forth, to unfold more and in its unfoldment, it would naturally touch the various other aspects of the mind and the body. So what we are doing in meditation is, to repeat again, activating the spiritual self so that it would help and
2. SA76-01 support the mind aspect of man and the body aspect of man. It enhances the mind, it develops the greater awareness of the mind, it develops a sense of greater perception and as far as the physical body is concerned, if there are any imbalance in the physical body, we are actively drawing on the spiritual self which is a great force, which is a great power and that slowly encompasses our whole body and there – therefore makes our body better, it creates a greater refinement in body. In our experience we have found that people suffering with certain diseases by drawing on this power, they do alleviate a lot of the physical sufferings as well. Then we find people with a nervous temperament that are very nervous. Now if the spiritual self can support and act as a balm to the nervous brain, to the nervous mind, it softens that nervous mind, it brings a greater calmness and when the mind and body and spirit are brought together to act in unison, to act in harmony, a person becomes more and more stable because now he does not only have to depend upon his physical energies, he can harness the mental energies in his physical and material activities and still more he brings forth the latent spiritual self in him that subtle energy, that subtle force which is all powerful. We know, according to physics, that an atom, a very small atom that cannot be seen by the eyes has so much power, it could blow up Table mountain. So in that way, the subtle energies in our self is so potent that if we only give it a chance through meditation, to unfold itself, it benefits a person in every respect and in every aspect of life. It benefits one in one's environment. If we make ourselves better, we do exude a certain vibration in the environment and the environment becomes better to him. If the flower becomes beautiful, naturally it makes the garden beautiful too. So that is what we do in meditation. So to answer your question, to come back to it, it is a misconception where the material side and spiritual side is separated, it can never be separated because the one cannot exist without the other. Some of the Vedic scriptures says that I exist because God exists and God exists because I exist. You cannot separate them too. One is an integral part of the other. What happens is this that sometimes the material side takes greater dominance, it predominates this spiritual side where the spiritual side is subdued while the ideal would be to let the spiritual side dominate. Let the spiritual side be predominant so that the – the – the physical side, the material side could become more and more richer and which it does – which it does. Good. Public: Guruji, umm – just to carry on with that -- Gururaj: Yeah, please do.
3. SA76-01 Public: < 0:07:36.6 > take up too much time asking questions, but it seems a very interesting point to take from there. You’ve mentioned the – the – the value of meditation as developing these inner spiritual qualities, inner spiritual potential – umm -- Gururaj: You don’t develop them, you unfold them. Public: Unfold them – unfold them. Gururaj: Um -hmm good. Public: And it would be very interesting I think to hear a little of the relationship –umm— the guru would have to meditation techniques because I think there’re number of us here are familiar with different paths, different techniques that are offered in the world and quite often when one comes across what we would term as “do it yourself” techniques or do it to yourself meditation. Gururaj: It's true. Public: And in the west this is the general conception actually and it would be interesting to know what the difference is between meditating -- Gururaj: Other systems and ours? Public: -- from a book and say as we are doing to be guided by you as a guru. Gururaj: True. Well, that is where we differ from many – many other movements and before I've taught anyone meditation here, I've explained this to them that every person is a unique entity and umm if a person wants to becomes a doctor and – and if he studies all the books on medicine or the various drugs, he might just be using the wrong drugs and kill himself but if he has an expert professor to teach him how to use those drugs, then of course, it would benefit him. Likewise in our system as has been explained before, every person is a unique entity and because of that, there is a particular method, a particular mantra that has to be given if mantras are required in many cases, to suite their own personal vibrations. Now as I've repeated this over and over again, perhaps there are some people here that does not know about it, that
4. SA76-01 everything in existence is nothing but vibration. These vibrations solidify themselves into gross matter. They exist on the one level as very subtle and through solidification like vapour into ice, they become gross and everything we perceive with the five senses. We perceive all the – the same vibration but in a gross solidified state like human beings, tables, chairs, everything is nothing but vibrations in a solid state. So those vibrations naturally would have to have motions and wherever there is motion, there must be sound. Now apart from the five senses used by man ordinarily, there are other latent senses in us that could perceive those vibrations at a far subtler level. They could perceive the vibrations, the impulse from the time of creation, gurus that are trained to do this, but have acquired disability can go deeply through his meditation into the primal vibration of a human being and if a mantra technique is given, it would be based on the particular vibration of that particular person. Now a mantra is normally a holy word. A mantra is a gross expression, an audible expression which is based upon that subtle impulse, upon that subtle sound which the guru can hear. So if a person meditates on his own, now – now of course the subtle sound a person emanates is – has a lot to do with his spiritual status. Now a mantra is given that would lead a person just a bit further than his spiritual state. So when a person meditates on that mantra, he would find that mantra very harmonious because it is him, it is his entirety. In the bible it is said about the word, you all know that, first was the word in the word, etc, you know that and this has the same meaning. So all our teachings are based upon universal truths. This you would find in the bible, this you would find in the Vedas, this you would find in Buddhist literature, you would find this that everything has been created by sound. In other words, the manifestor had to manifest himself first through the medium of sound. At first, if you can picture yourself a very calm lake, very calm. Then a ripple starts. When that ripple starts, there creation begins and at the starting of this ripple, there is – the ripple itself is vibration and the motion the ripple has created creates a sound. So people that are trained can go back in an individual person's life and his past lives right to his primal sound and that sound lingers, that sound is there modified in most cases, through the process of evolution and that sound can be heard at the particular level of the person. So to repeat again, to be able to meditate again on an individual technique, on an individual mantra, rather than a mantra taken from a book which might not be suitable, it would be like just picking out a drug from a book and taking it for your headache. It might be made for toe ache. You could make a lot of mistakes that way. So therefore we need a teacher. A guru is only a spiritual teacher and his job is to start a student, a chela from the level of where that chela is. He starts him from there and the chela would find that through the practices given, he would start developing. So many things will start unfolding. Now you will ask why do many things start unfolding? It starts unfolding because meditating on his own particular vibration, he is bringing into play many forces. These forces, psychic forces, physical forces and spiritual forces,
5. SA76-01 these forces come into play doing one thing. They start harmonising. They start harmonising the three aspects of man. The physical body and mental body and the spiritual body and when that harmony is brought about, he becomes more perceptive. He becomes more stable, he becomes more self integrated. It is not something that can be done overnight, we don’t perform miracles. But with the gradual process, the meditator himself feels the benefits received and therefore when he feels benefits received, he pursues in his technique. There are many systems of meditation where a person starts meditating, they do it for two three months and then they stop it because they don’t find it any benefit. Now in our experience with our foundation, people never do stop, they do carry on because day by day they grow more and more. In the beginning they might not notice so much the benefits themselves, but the environment notices it. They form – some of the meditators will tell you they exude a certain magnetism, a magnetic – magnetic power, certain charismatic power where they draw people unto themselves. We know of meditators that could not even speak infront of two people, bu t today with the stability gained in themselves through meditation, they can address a crowd of 50 or a 100, they would not be shy because they are stable. They are – they were shy because they felt insecure. Now with the stability gained in them, they feel more and more secure. So the aim is harmonising the abilities within us and by harmonising the abilities, they become more stable and anything done from a firm foundation, from stability naturally produces good results. They become better and as I said, the beautiful flower grows and it enhances the environment of the garden as well. Okay. So these are the differences. That's one of the differences. The other difference is gurushakti. Gurushakti is something indefinable. Gurushakti is a spiritual force that can be portrayed, the – the abstract spiritual force can be brought forth through the concrete and passed onto another to help him in progressing, in producing greater harmony. Yeah. It is not like a doctor where he gives you the medicine only and says, “drink it and you will get better.” Here is an active part played, an active channel continuously flowing to the chela, to the student, to the initiate whereby all the meditations are helped and certain things which they cannot ri gh t by themselves are righted by the help of the guru. So he teaches, he guides, he loves, he embraces and he has them all in his heart and there is no distance. There's no distance. We have had the experience of people thousands of miles away and immediately they – they call upon the divine power and they feel it here with themselves, they actively feel it and where five minutes before they felt so insecure, five minutes later they feel so secure and they could tackle the world, tackle the problems of the world. So that is how gradually lives become better and better. Your life is enriched, it becomes richer and more and more joyful and life is meant to be joy, it is supposed to be joyful because we are not acquiring joy, joy is inherent in us, joy is there, it is just for us to remove the veils of ignorance that precludes the joy that's an obstacle to the joy from shining out.
6. SA76-01 Now people that want to start meditation if you ask why does a person wants to start meditating. Because he finds a certain lack within himself, he has a certain yearning, a yearning for betterment and people that start on any spiritual path are really to be congratulated so much that after swimming around in that little – the story of the little frog that's in the well, he thinks that is all there is until he comes out and meets the frog from the ocean and that is what people are doing. When people start meditate, there is a beautiful yearning within themselves to find betterment. They ask themselves, look this can't just be all, there must be something more. Fine. And in that quest of that something more, they progress further and further, they –and – and because of that quest, the – the – the joy is not only in attainment, but the joy is also in attaining. So the path to joy must also be joyful. Now with the development, with the stirring up of spiritual energies within ourselves, we also do one thing that in our conscious waking state, that living state, we also try and better that. We try and be – it's actually so simple as <0:21:10.2> said this morning, so simple that “do good, be good”. That's all! Now if we live that kind of life, if we have the thought of certain spiritual ideals in us in the waking state, naturally we will try and behave better. Thought, word and deed also become one and the spiritual powers that are now awakened in us help us to make thought, word and deed work in harmony and what happens by having thought, word and deed in harmony, we become more loving. We start loving people and when we start loving, we become lovable. You see the effect it has. You just cannot separate one from the other. If I am loving, then I know I also become lovable. So its a circle. Its a circle, ever widening circle that starts with two people and it widens – widens – widens until the whole universe is addressed and then truly in the words of Christ, can man say, “I and my father are one.” Yes. Then I and my father becomes one. We reach this stage of Christhood, we do and then the whole universe becomes one. All force of duality ceases when you say me and mine or you and yours. That ceases, its just us and ours. Now this can start very well in – in householder life between husband and wife, between boy and girl that wants to get married. All these thoughts ceases. These somehow by our actions and by our spiritual practices, cease to think in terms of duality. So earlier when you spoke of people separating materiality from spirituality, that stops ceasing and then we see – we see the – the – the – the H2O in water, hydrogen and oxygen becoming one in water. They might still be those two elements when we speak of it from the relative level, naturally from the relative level, there would be dualities but as we go and proceed to a finer and finer degree of relativity, so the duality too diminishes – diminishes – diminishes until the separation of hydrogen and oxygen be comes one in the water. And water is very life giving. Water is refreshing. And so in that way we are so refreshed to tackle anything. Now when we go beyond the laws of opposites that is duality, pleasure and pain, sweet and bitter, where – as we start going beyond those laws of opposites, then we do really find the aim and end of all existence. That is the point where everything just becomes one, just oneness – just oneness. And when that oneness is there, who can hate who? How can I hate you when you are me? Like that. Now that is – that is to give you a
7. SA76-01 brief glimpse of the purpose of life, but we could never reach soul spree if we don’t start going there. So we start, we star t from where we are and that is where the guru plays his part. He, a real guru should have the ability to assess the evolutionary state of a person, he should be able to know the mental makeup of the person and how it affects him in his daily life. So in our system, it is not only the heart that gets developed, but also the mind gets a better awareness and the body becomes better refined. There are many systems in the world that gets stucked in analysis only and – and they get stucked on the mind level and lot of things that are happening in this world today which are not so good, which are not life supporting is because people act and behave entirely from the mind level. Now if that mind is infused with the qualities of the heart, how much better can this world not be? How much better can humanity not be? So as I was telling Tom this morning that to change society, we change ourselves first because units composes society. It would be wrong to – to try and improve society as a whole. It would be the better way and the right way to improve ourselves as units first and these spiritual practices helps us to that goal. It helps to improve society and it helps to improve us because the improvement of our own selves is the improvement of society. I'm sure you must have had the experience where there's a lot of gloomy company and just one person walks in and he changes the whole atmosphere. I'm sure everyone has experienced that, fine. Because that person that has changed the atmosphere there is a person who has developed, perhaps unconsciously, perhaps not consciously, unconsciously. He has developed certain latent abilities within himself that – that he exudes the joy and so the whole environment is improved and everyone becomes happier. I have very seldom seen a sad person, I don’t know what it is. Why should people be sad? It might be temporary sadness and then you speak to the person, look at the person, discuss things and this sadness evaporates. So how – why did it evaporate? It ’s not only by the reasoning that is given by the mental analysis, but there is that some other power tha t exudes from a happy joyous person, that could make the other person happy and joyous too. Good. Yeah, are you happy? (Laughs) Public: < 0:28:14.4 > Gururaj: Please – please. Public: < 0:28:18.6 >
8. SA76-01 Gururaj: That – that depends on the person, that depends on the person. The teacher would know that when the pupil has finished one lesson, does that pupil know the lesson well or not? Then the pupil puts – the teacher puts the pupil onto another lesson. Public: < 0:28:51.1 > Gururaj: There’s always contact. Contact is never lost. By initiation a bond is formed where there is no time where there is no distance. Contacts are forever made. And that is why we get hundreds and hundreds of letters from all over and we k now, by those letters, what should be done and what not should be done. But the mantras that are given to people are of such a wide range from their level to another level which is very wide if you measure it in earthly terms. Perhaps a person might have to stick to that mantra for a few lifetimes. (Laughs) or perhaps in three months it would be changed. You see. Public: Gururaj is it not < 0:29:43.1 > the mantra could probably grow with you or y ou could start < 0:29:48.1 > anymore? Gururaj: Umm Public: In other words, it ’ s not like a mant r a < 0:29:55.1 > Gururaj: Um -hmm true – true – umm – there would come a time where you’d be nothing, where you would need nothin g at all because you are it all. The day when a person becomes one with the universe, they would not need that – would not need that. Then he would use it for just a bit of relaxation. That's all (laughs) or perhaps to bring him back to the memories of those times – so many lifetimes ago perhaps – yeah – yeah – those were the times of trouble and now its the time of happiness and then you look back and say, oh yes those were terrible times, times of trouble. And what it does to a person, by looking like that it makes a person more compassionate, it makes a person look at others with an equal I with compassion and with love and not condemn. You'd say, “ Ah , come on my son, don’t worry. I've also been through those stages. I've also had it.” (laughs) Public: May I ask this question? Gururaj: Please.
9. SA76-01 Public: Some of us perh aps have known through this way < 0:31:06.1 > in a certain direction. Gururaj: Um -hmm. Public: Helping out people in certain ways. Umm does it – when would we know if we need a different < 0:31:21.6 > to give us more strength – would probably know – I didn’t know that I'm meant to whatever change you just mentioned. Gururaj: You would know – you would know – you would know. Public: A lot of strength is coming to me so I wondered if --- Gururaj: Very beautiful – very beautiful. Let the strength come. Public: Yes. Gururaj: And then you’d be told immediately what to do next. Public: < 0:31:41.5 > Gururaj: When the pupil is ready, the master is there. Public: < 0:31:46.0 > Gururaj: Yeah – yeah, the pupil is ready, the master's there and the master comes in so many forms and shapes. Its not only Gururaj that you need, yeah. The whole idea of the external guru is to awaken the internal guru. I am only a channel, a means. There will come a time where you don’t need the external guru because internal guru has been awakened, that inner beauty is awakened and then you ask the questions to yourself and you'd be answering. Public: < 0:32:22.1 > Gururaj: Yeah, yes – oh yes, it works very beautifully. Yeah.
10. SA76-01 Public: Gururaj, umm when you were going to a next life, would you be aware of umm the < 0:32:34.7 > this life? Gururaj: When you go into your next life? Public: < 0:32:38.4 > Gururaj: It is not necessary. It is not necessary for you to carry with you the memory of this life. So it's not necessary that you carry with you the memory of your mantra. Now if the person has progressed very much in this life, right. And in the next life you would have the ability to go back into past life, then you will know, “Oh this was the mantra I was on”. Until then, but a star has been made. A person has been put into the right direction. So even in your next life, the guru would be there to awaken that mantra in you again, that impulse in you again and say, “Please carry on,” because you are on the right path. Okay? Good. You’re very quiet. Public: < 0:33:30.3 > Gururaj: Good, lovely (Laughs) yes. Public: I was wandering < 0:33:35.3 > to help a temporary anxiety < 0:33:40.2 > well now, that is a sort of temporary passing anxiety < 0:33:55.8 > Gururaj: Well, what I normally do say is when you feel anxious, sit down to meditate. Yes, and – and of course, by meditation it brings a great calmness of the mind and body and when the mind and body is calm, anxieties would cease. Now we living in this physical world, there would be things like those. The – the ocean will be turbulent with the waves, it would be turbulent. There have to be these waves, but then we do know that within, under, deep down the waves, there's a beautiful calm. So then these anxieties too should be viewed very – very objectively. You asked the question why should I feel anxious? What is the worst that could happen? Public: Yes, that's true.
11. SA76-01 Gururaj: Once we start asking that question, what is the worst that could happen? Automatically you’ll find a greater strength within yourself because you’d be looking at the situation or at the thought objectively. Then you develop the idea that I am not the doer, this I is not the doer. There's a greater I within that is the doer. Now by – by adopting that attitude that I am not the doer but the greater I is the doer, we learn the art of acceptance. Once we learn the art of acceptance, greater humility comes to us and once we have humility and acceptance, nothing can really hurt – hurt us or harm us really and by that way of looking at life, we do not get away from the joy that is inherent. We still delve in the joy. And so what is the worst that could happen? Now there are two kinds of people that could say that, one could be an irresponsible person, would say, “so what?” and then the other person would say, “so what?” through strength, through compassion, through humility, through acceptance because in this lifetime there are many things that cannot be changed. For example a person is blind and his optic nerves have been so severely damaged, that person should not look for a miracle to find eye sight. He is in that po sition because of certain karmic deaths, but the attitude that person can develop is this that I accept my blindness, but I do know that by having one of the senses destroyed, there would be another sense more developed to compensate for it. Now to what use am I going to put that other sense that is more developed? A person that lose sight might develop his hearing ability to a great extent. Fine. So that person should concentrate more on his hearing ability and put it to such great use that he would not even miss the loss of his eyesight. A lot in life depends upon the attitude we look, the attitude we have and – and our perspective towards looking at things. So like that if we develop the attitude what is the worst that could happen? We are governed by certain laws of nature and because of that certain things do happen, and we accept it. What is the worst that could happen? Yeah. The worst thing people fear is death. That's the worst that could happen to a person and yet death is just a – a – going through a door to another life. Public: Gururaj. Gururaj: Yes. Public: May I ask you a question on spiritual healing? Gururaj: Please, yes. Public: Some people < 0:38:29.9 >
12. SA76-01 Gururaj: That is karmic. Now there are two kinds of healing, when you say spiritual healing, you have a person who is a magnetic healer, that means he generates a certain kind of magnetism which he can impart to another person and it could form a temporary cure, but what happens is this that you cure the toe ache, but you start up with a headache. Okay? Now the other kind of a spiritual healer is a kind of channel whereby he gathers spiritual energies and passes it on to the person. Now that too is good, it would alleviate the pain of the person, but how much development is made spiritually there? It could even become a block, it could even become a block because all our troubles and all our karmic deaths, we have to work out ourselves, no one can do that for us. We have to work it out ourselves. Oh yes, we must, we must work it out ourselves. Through this there could be a temporarily – right – umm – many of the spiritual healers, their treatments are very superficial, they can heal things superficially, but never— they could never change the – the cause of one's spiritual life . That one has to do oneself. Public: < 0:40:25.5 > Gururaj: Oh yes, oh yes – oh yes and umm I always have a very favourite joke and say that if you have killed 20 people, right, it doesn’t mean that you are gonna be killed 20 times, but if you have killed 20 people, saves the lives of 21 people, and you will rub off the death of the other 20, yeah. So there's nothing to be despondent about. So that is why we must consciously, apart from doing our practices, we must consciously try and live a good life, be good, do good. That kind of life and we can – we cannot rub off karma but we can balance it out – we can balance it out. It is the sum total that is important. It is not the individual digits that are important. Say so even if a person has lived, say a very bad life upto the age of 30, he does not need to be despondent at all because from the age of 30 to 40, he’d do so many lovely and good deeds that in the balance he would be on the credit side of good karma. Yes. Public: You don’t ha ve to come back on another life to < 0:41:52.6 > Gururaj: You can, yes – yes. A person can achieve self-realisation in one lifetime or a person can achieve self realisation in a thousand lifetimes, it depends entirely on the person. Depends on the sincerity and the effort he puts into it. Meditations are effortless as we know, but the living of a good life requires some effort. It has to have effort. Many people think and there are other movements perhaps that say, “You meditate 20 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes at night and everything will come right for you” that is a fallacy. That is a great help that brings about a great amount of calmness for you to be able to tackle life’s problems, but in the waking state, we – we have to have some form of discipline, some form
13. SA76-01 of control in our lives and not just haywire because, say for example, a person was a drunkard and he wants the experience of sobriety, but if he does not push the bottle away from him, it will further and further each time, he is not gonna experience sobriety. So he can meditate as much as he likes, its not going to help him much, he has to put in some conscious effort in his daily living. He has to. If it was just so simple, 20 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes at night, everybody will go to heaven tomorrow (laughs). It is not so simple. The spiritual path, the spiritual path is one of the most difficult paths. It is difficult, one has to consciously live well, do well, yes, and meditations makes him stronger, it helps him more with the greater light radiant shining through, but what is the use of meditating and letting that light shine through and – and on the other hand you;re blocking it with – with a screen. With a veils, we remove veils on one side by practical living, and on the other side, we – we unfold and let the spiritual energies come through it. We clear the glass so the light shines through clearly, beautifully, uncloudedly. That's right. Did you want to say something? Public: I’d like to say < 0:44:22.8 > what I would like to say is – umm – < 0:44:26.8 > Gururaj: True – true – true. Public: < 0:44:44.5 > Gururaj: To the genuine seeker, yes. To the genuine seeker. Public: < 0:44:53.1 > Gururaj: To the sincere person. You would have some people coming along to the guru for the sake of curiosity. Like I got many people that before they came to me they thought that its gonna be an old man with robes and long beards and you know they <0:45:08.8 > no – no – no – if a teacher wants to teach, the n he must be able to communicate and communication must not come from a pedestal, he must be like the people, of the people, for the people, the people, yes, he must be ordinary like ordinary people and - -and that is why we do not agree with gurus sitting on pedestals. It's not necessary. They must – if they – if I wanna teach someone to swim, I jump into the water with the child and swim with the child and help him, lift him up a little where he is going wrong, yes. That's the way. Those are the teachers we need. Those are the kinds of teachers, Christ was like that and Buddha was like that. Krishna was like that. Rama was like that. Its only some of the pseudo gurus that want to sit on pedestals. They want to keep apart holy – holy, no. Manly – manly yeah. Be a man (laughs) be with the people, yes – yes – yes – yes.
14. SA76-01 Public: May I ask < audio skips > the incarnation about with I'm not < 0:46:26.7 > asked him about it, he's a very open - minded man, but he said, “No, one life, one soul, one < 0:46:38.1 >, one punishment, one reward” (laughs) < 0:46:47.0 > Gururaj: True. Nevertheless, what does one do to a father confessor? One confesses and you confess the various beliefs you have. Now we are not a foundation that is sectarian. If you see our symbol inside the meditation room, you’ll have all the religions portrayed there. What we try to find there is the essence of all religions and when – and you can be – you can rest assured that the essence of all religion is but one, it's the same. There is that divinity underlying all various kinds of beliefs. Now if you want to progress on the path of spirituality, it is not necessary to believe in reincarnation. It's not necessary to believe in anything for that matter. You just carry on, doing what feels right to you and you would progress. Now normally between guru and chela there is a communication, there is a certain mental level, there are certain principles that are intuitively agreed upon. So the best way to do things is to go to a guru that has very similar thoughts t o ours and progress from there and when we have passed Standard I, we’ll go to Standard II and in the class of Standard II there’ll be another teacher. Standard III we’ll find another teacher, Standard IV another teacher. Talking of reincarnation it is something that cannot be proven in a test tube. That is something that can be known by directing – direct experience or by inference. The scientists or many people have come forth with a lot of factual evidence which infers that there was a life before. Good. That is taken as a basis. The other argument for incarnation – reincarnation is this that if we regard divinity to be just and fair, then why would one child be born in terrible suffering circumstances while another born so happy and that has everything he wants. Now if divinity was fair, why should it be unfair to the one and so so good to the other? Now these things are taken into consideration. Many people have given affidavits and we have read many articles in papers where people seem to have known things about the past lives and they go to places and – and they describe these things even before they go there. Through illiterate people now – now these things seem to approve that there was and that there is incarnation. I was told by someone that reincarnation was even in the Bible until the counsel of Constantine. Public: Yes, yes < 0:50:14.3 > Gururaj: Yeah, and they of course -- Public: < 0:50:19.7 >
15. SA76-01 Gururaj: Pardon. Public: 450 AD. Gururaj: 450 AD ? Yeah, and – and then of course, you know the teachings were sort of put in a certain mould to suit the people or the rulers of that time or the church elders of that time and that is what people go by, but I would say again to you that even if you believe or you don’t believe in reincarnation, there who could ever deny what religion could ever say that to do good and be good is wrong? Yeah. So even if we believe in reincarnation or not, how we improve this life that is important. What a person is going to be in 20 life – after 20 life, that is not important. Important thing is this life now – now – now, what are we doing and through the things that we are doing, how much happier are we becoming? That's the important thing and then of course we do insist on one thing that nobody in our movement, nobody changes the religion, a Christian must become a better Christian, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Buddhist a better Buddhist \, oh yes. As long as the human values of a person becomes better, becomes elevated, that is what we want, its not what church he goes to or what beliefs he has. Because basically the principles are the same like Ramakrishna says that all religions come from different directions and ultimately becomes one in the same motion and that's where it is. Good. You're very quiet Violet? Public: I'm finding all my answers. Gururaj: Answered? (Laughs) Public: < 0:52:16.8 > what actually comes back isn’t just the consciousness because < 0:52:21.7 > Gururaj: True – true. Public: But some people do < 0:52:26.1 > just a consciousness? Gururaj: Its – its the development of the consciousness, a broader awareness – a greater and greater awareness whereby you encompass the whole universe. Publi c: < 0:52:37.1 >
16. SA76-01 Gururaj: Of course it has to do with the soul but believing it or not has nothing to do with it. You can find an atheist, a child that could deny god, but he would live his life so beautifully. I would regard him to be the great er theist. Yeah, to live a life more beautifully is a better theist than – than the theist who goes regularly to church Sunday mornings and is a hypocrite. Public: < 0:53:08.5 >surely to have a religion or not to have a religion is not a < 0:53:15.0 > Gururaj: To a good person, none of these things are important. A good person is a person that has love, compassion in his heart, has sympathy. He – he has the – the – the – the impetus in him always wanting to have – always to be good. The noon gun also agrees with me (laughs) . Public: < 0:53:42.6 > Gururaj: (Laughs) Public: We agree that that the spirit and the mind and the body altogether create harmony and the harmony creates love. Now how it happened that you know due to the <0:54:06.8> how we loss the <0:54:21.0> Gururaj: So? Public: Disharmonious. Gururaj: Disharmonious? Public: < 0:54:30.1 > we know that meditation will give us this harmony, why don’t we – why nobody knows about it? You know why the people has lost? Gururaj: Um -hmm true – true – true. Now people think that the world has evolved. I do not think so really, perhaps the world has progressed technologically, but spiritually they have not progressed. There were just as much sin and crime during the time of Christ as there is today. So its not a matter of loosing anything. Its not a matter of loosing, we could never say that the people of those times were better people than those of today, or the people of today are better people than people of those – those times. Nothing has been lost and meditation is such an individual thing that you will always
17. SA76-01 find a certain amount of people throughout the world that will always be progressing on the spiritual path. They will always be progressing on the spiritual path. So it might be lost to many, but there are still some to whom it is a reality and the more those that kn ow of the reality portray to others, they would be helping others in that way and in helping others, they’d be helping themselves more too. They will always remain this imbalance as long as the universe exists. It can be explained by the three gunas which is a very long subject really. Rajas, Tamas and Satva, those are the three primary elements that created and caused - -that is the cause of the imbalance in the universe and which constitutes the universe. Until those three elements, Rajas, Tamas and Satva, come to a state of equilibrium, all these will go on and it might take millions and millions of years for it to come to that state as far as the human being is concerned. Public: < 0:56:50.5 > Gururaj: Oh yes – oh yes. Public: < 0:56:54.8 > Gururaj: Nature is perfect. It is only man that i s also perfect, but has drawn imperfection upon himself that – that has superimposed upon himself these imperfections, yes and because it is a superimposition they can easily be got rid of. Public: The superimpositions < 0:57:20.7 > Gururaj: Nature did not allow it really, nature did not allow it. It was the interplay of the three gunas that caused certain imbalances. Lets use an analogy, the sun draws up water from the earth, from the rivers and the seas and draws it up in vapour form and it makes the cloud. Now when it makes a cloud, it prevents the sun from shining through and we find darkness. Right. So the sun that make the cloud is making the sun dark now. So these are workings within nature. There are times when these three gunas, the – the – the one predominates the other and when the – the – the cloud disperses, the sun shines his full glory again and who helps the sun to disperse? The sun itself again. The cloud too disperse the sun because of its heat. So like that it goes on and on and on in cycles and when the balance is maintained between the three gunas, rajas – tamas, rajas and Satva, then there would be that equilibrium, but that equilibrium is the fore runner of a next cycle again and this is why everything is eternal. Everything, the subtle energy is eternal which we could call divinity. Even this physical body cannot be destroyed. This physical body is eternal too. When a person dies, the body disintegrates into its original elements. In cremation the body becomes ether again, but nothing is destroyed – not hing is
18. SA76-01 destroyed. One cannot detract one ounce from this universe nor add on one ounce from this universe. It is always a change of name and form. The same matter, the same energy, the same one substance. It is only shown in two different aspects of matter and energy, it’s the same thing, two aspects of the same thing. Public: < 0:59:55.0 > Gururaj: Yes. Public: And where strangers --- Gururaj: Yes. Public: < 1:00:08.3 > Gururaj: Where the equilibrium was achieved. Public: < 1:00:11.2 > Gururaj: That’s right, yes – yes. And that keeps on happening all the time until eternity. That’s one cycle after the other and there were cycles more advanced and people have found proof today of – of – of very – very high civilisations, greatly developed civilisations that just shows that they belong to different cycle. I have read some ancient books, for example the Ramayana and the Mahabharata where atomic warfare was described where flying aeroplanes were described, while in the cycle we only know about it. Now past 50-60 years. Public: < 1:00:57.2 >there was a civilisation who knew about aeroplanes? Gururaj: Hmm yes, true – true – true. ‘Cause I used the word cycle in a far bigger term where it encompasses the whole universe. The whole universe goes into a state of parlay, that's a Sanskrit word for equilibrium, a see type of thing, but yet it contains the impulses to create the next cycle and so everything starts evolving again from there.
19. SA76-01 Public: Gururaj I think the ideas that seemed to be coming up of a much more frequent kind of period where say, I know certain Christians, say for example, have a hope that there would be a thousand years of peace somewhere between 10,000 years of – of relative peace at least throughout the family of man and Apostle Thomas asking relates to that kind of thing which – where you could actually so put a day into it even if that day is something like 200,000 BC or something like that where there – one could actually locate in time and relative to universal time relative to infinity reasonably near to us where there will be, say a period where man was not as full of strife as he is today where he could live without being incarnate, where he could live – as we are suggesting, we begin to know loving others as a family and not thinking of I and thou – Gururaj: True. Public: -- us together and that we have life together as a happy family. Gururaj: Yes, yes – yes, yes Yeah, why worry about pralay? Public: Yes. Gururaj: Now? Public: Yes, it’s too far a route. Gururaj: Too far a route, yes. Public: < 1:03:08.9 > Gururaj: Like that favourite joke of mine. I think I've told this a few times before, like a woman hear, she was in England. She heard that the world was coming to an end in 2 million years time and she committed suicide (laughs). Public: < 1:03:34.6 > Gururaj: Oh yes, true.
20. SA76-01 Public: then you think a new – this is a new – completely new cycle < 1:03:52.5 > Gururaj: True – true, oh yes, very true – very true. Public: Does this mean that < 1:04:04.8 > Gururaj: He's always there, he's never been away. Public: But – umm – < 1:04:11.8 > Gururaj: Christians say that where I am needed I shall come again and again, yeah, age after age. Public: < 1:04:23.4 > but not necessarily born a Christian? Gururaj: No, no, what is meant that that divine energy, the greatest purveyor of that divine energy will be embodied – embodied again and again. Oh yes. Public: < 1:04:43.8 > Gururaj: Does the human form really destroy it self? Public: For why does do we have to come to a state where there is < 1:04:55.4 > Gururaj: That does not happen in one lifetime though. Over millions and millions and millions of years this happens. That is the process, that is the profit – that is the process of nature and – and as the – as theological people would say we come from god and we go back to god, that's what is meant by that. Good. That is the whole purpose of creation. People theologians would say that, that is the play and display of the creator. So that question should be asked to the creator, “Why do you create?” Now I tell you the creator creates because he couldn’t help it. Public: < 1:05:46.1 >
21. SA76-01 Gururaj: Yeah, look the creator created because he couldn’t help it or else there would be no word creator. Public: < 1:05:54.6 > Gururaj: So ,so therefore – therefore creator and creation cannot be separated. If you – if you look at the word carefully, creator, right. Creation is create is in the word creator. It is its nature to create. It is the nature of fire to give heat, it is the nature of snow to be cold. Public: < 1:06: 24.8 > Gururaj: (Laughs) beautiful – beautiful. Public: < 1:06:39.3 > Gururaj: Are you talking of cycles? Public: Well no, actually I'm talking of – of < 1:06:55.0 > do things. Gururaj: Yes, that life would carry on through many – many – many births until it has freed itself from its shackles, from the bondage of karma. You – your Buddhism says that. Free of the wheel of birth and death. Public: I think – I think < 1:07:16.3 > common fear of actually dying < 1:07:23.4 > abusing identity and < 1:07:25.4 > (laughs) Gururaj: No really, no – no identity is lost. Identity is never lost. Right until one has freed oneself of all the shackles identity is not lost. Yes, what you do you – you (laughs) you leave this body and take on another body, yes, like going from changing clothes, that's what it is, changing clothes. Public: < 1:08:02.4 > Gururaj: Please do Peter.
22. SA76-01 Public: Umm < 1:08:06.1 > karma. Could you say something about that in relation to < 1:08:18.0 > ? Gururaj: Does it say about < 1:08:21.8 > to karma? Yes. Public: < 1:08:24.5 > Gururaj: No now what is meant there is this that through meditation by gaining a greater and greater refinement and by gaining a greater sense of non-attachment, that whatever karma we do will not be binding upon us. Just as – just as a roasted seed can never grow, that’s what it means. Public: Is it similar also Gururaj, to saying that meditation removes weakness and a weakness – one weakness, say that the –the tendency to thieve is the seeing of many thefts and if you remove that tendency, you remove the – the action or the karma of further thefts so by adding strength, you remove weakness and hence you remove that which is giving birth to -- to <1:09:27.6> Gururaj: Beautiful – beautiful. Every action starts with tendency, right. Tendency translates itself into thought and thought into action. So once the tendency is removed, you are removing the thought and – and by removing the thought, the action is removed. Public: < 1:09:50.5 > bring a very interesting point now guruji, you mentioned to us that at some stage one becomes so refined and so in attuned with one's guru, in other words with the very life < 1:10:06.1 > the universe that < 1:10:08.7 > that one's action automatically springs . Gururaj: Yes, spontaneously all actions are then done spontaneously. When a person is in attunement with divinity, then all actions becomes spontaneous and all spontaneous actions in that sense would just be right, never wrong, never wrong because you are flowing with nature, you're flowing with the current of the river and not against it and that becomes – yes – and – and that becomes automatic. But what we have to do is to develop to that stage first where – where you let nature take over and guides your life. Public: < 1:10:57.4 >
23. SA76-01 Gururaj: Actions. Public: That's interesting guruji, because there's this questioning again in – in trying to achieve that, one – in trying to achieve that spontaneity one has or one learns and is taught various meditation technique, but what is the value of say, making a mood of perhaps you feel irritable with somebody, but you don’t want to be unkind so you – you make a mood of kindness where it perhaps is not too insincere. Is that dishonesty – because I think this is kind of –- Gururaj: It would be, yeah. It would be dishonest if there was a motive to it, a selfish motive, but if you would say kind word there even though you never felt it, but you know, through discrimination that would help that person. Not you yourself, that is selfish, so if that was said selflessly, it would not be karmically binding. Public: I'm thinking now that what was at the scene of that thought was – umm— the question of devotion, one wants to be devoted but to, one cannot mood make love, it's not something that can be <1:12:24.4 > Gururaj: Sure you can't. Public: But this can, nevertheless something one can do with the emotions to which – to begin with < 1:12:33.3 > Gururaj: Hmm it could lead. Public: But it could lead to know the truth. Gururaj: It could lead to spontaneity yes. For example all forms of worship, when you enter a church or a temple, or a synagogue, you know with the chanting and the prayers and this that, it sort of brings a certain kind of mood, but one has to go beyond the mood. Right. Whereby it does not remain a mood alone. See a mood is something on the very superficial level, so we go beyond the mood and – and be spontaneous. But even mood making serves a purpose. It takes one on a certain path and then you don’t need it, it’s like a housewife making a list to do shopping and – and when the shopping is done, you throw the list away. That is one of the paths. In our path, there is no mood making or conditioning ourselves at all. We sit down to meditate quietly with the practice given to us and moods are not necessary. It
24. SA76-01 is just being ourselves facing ourselves and slowly on – of its own accord the mind and the body gets calmer and that within us, the real I shines. Shines forth, unfolds. Public: I was thinking in connection therewith, what would be a good way for one's self for any person to open the heart. How – how to actually open oneself to gurushakti to the – to the grace of god? Yes, how to open when one has a meditation technique, one leads a good life but perhaps one still feels the heart is not yet open enough. It is – it is not wide enough and perhaps this kind of thought would be inspired by say, meeting somebody who had that ability to open so fully that they -- Gururaj: Oh, to open fully depends entirely upon a person’s capacity. Public: Yes. Gururaj: Right, but all could be opened, all could be opened. Oh yes. And we should never anticipate the fullness of the unfoldment yet. We just go on with as far as we are, from where we are. We should never compare a person who is spiritually highly evolved and unfolded with ourselves for example, yeah. And if there is some progress further and further, progress will come. It adds onto a greater momentum. Like snowballs, yeah, as it goes down the hill it becomes bigger and bigger. < audio skips > Point there is no suffering. If we stand at the ocean, we find the waves very turbulent fine. But if we go up in the sky, a mile up, that same ocean will seem calm. So it depends, suffering or no suffering depends upon where we stand from the angle, from the value of the absolute, there is no misery or no suffering, but from the angle and value of the relative, everything is a suffering and everything is a misery . So therefore by the practices of our meditation, we learn - -we learn to be in touch with the absolute. We learn to live in the absolute and thereby we do not get affected by any kind of suffering in the world because we have now acquired that strength, we can see any kind of suffering objectively. We can see the true work of it. We can se e the changless amidst the change and then we can truly say, for this too will pass away. Then we understand the meaning of that injunction. Right. Now that was the practical method, but what are the mechanics involved? What are the mechanics in how the absolute you know became the relative or did the absolute really became the relative? What is the difference between the absolute and the relative and what are the mechanics of making the
25. SA76-01 absolute and the relative join hands? Now can we make the absolute and the relative join hands? No, because they are forever joining hands. If you can, man must never separate the absolute from the relative. If you can picture yourself a vast sheet of, say blue colour, at the one end its deep blue, at the other end, gradually it fades – fades – fades and then at the other end it comes a very fine blue. So that is the relationship. All existence in the universe is nothing but vibration and when vibration becomes solidified, to use an analogy as vapou r becomes ice,. Vapour is in the subtle form and ice is in the grosser form. So in that way, in this blue expanse of paint we talked about now, at the grossest level we see the deep blue, that is the relative, that is the creation while at the subtle level of the finer blue. You were not making noise with the high heels (laughs). So in the expanse – in the expanse of the blue paint, at the gross level where the blue was deep, there the vibrations were compacted, the light – the solid ice and at the subtler level where the blue were so fine, there the vibrations existed at the subtler level like vapour. Fine. So there is no differentiation between the relative and the absolute. They are the same, the absolute and relative is the same but the difference lies in degree – the degree of intensity. Now when it comes to suffering, now from the absolute point of view, when we threw our meditational practices, have contacted the absolute and we see that here in this flower, there is the invisible sap. Here in this glass, there is that invisible power that keeps all the molecules of this glass together when we can realise that by contacting the absolute, through our meditational practices, then we would cease to see the suffering, suffering would not then exist. But that is only when we reach the absolute, but that is only when we reach the absolute, but until we are in the relative, suffering is there for us. If I stuck my toe, it is going to hurt, I cannot deny it. My toe hurts, fine. Good. What are the mechanics there? Now if god or divinity, people don’t like the word god, I don’t know why. It's such a beautiful word and – and if you spell god the other way around, dog, there's god even in dog, never mind in man and yet man does not want to appreciate him. I don’t know. Nevertheless from the absolute there's no suffering. So now if divinity is perfection itself, how can the perfect create that which is imperfect? That has been the problem of philosophers. If you do not agree with creation. Now who creates? Who creates? An artist creates a poem. Why it wants to express itself? A musician composes a piece of music, a symphony. Why? Because he wants to express himself. Right. An artist does a painting. Why? Because he wants to express himself. Now who requires expression? It is only the imperfect that requires expression to perfect himself because by the means of expression, it wants to perfect himself. But in the case of divinity, we cannot say that divinity is imperfect because if he was imperfect, then only would he require to perfect itself by creation, by expression. But if divinity is perfect , then it would not want to create, it does not want to express. So what happens here that divinity does not create. We use the word for convenience sometimes in theology. Divinity does not create, divinity manifests. By that we mean that it is the
26. SA76-01 nature of divinity to manifest. It is the nature of divinity to manifest as fire manifests heat. It is the nature of the fire to give off heat. The fire does not create heat, it is the nature of fire to give heat and how can heat be separated from the fire? It is its nature, they are part and parcel of itself. If there was no heat, there would have not been fire, if there was no fire, then there would have not been heat. God exists because you exist and you exist because god exists. One is an integral part and parcel of the other. The manifest and the manifestor is but one and we – we only find the differentiation when we view it from different angles. We can look at this expanse of blue colour, when we see the blue colour in its grossest form, the deep blue. We know that is the manifestation, the gross level and when we see the same colour in its subtle form, the light fine blue, then we know it is there in the subtle form as the manifesto, manifestor and the manifest. Fine. So in this way manifestation is there if you do not accept creation. But now suffering where that thing still rears his head. But why must the manifestor who is pure bliss manifest something which is not bliss? The explanation to this can only be given in the form of an analogy. The sun shines, it is through the heat of the sun that the water turns into vapour and its taken up to the sky in vapour form. The vapour gathers together and forms thick clouds. It is the very clouds that obscures the sun from shinning through and we see darkness downstairs. So you see the combination and the mixture. So the concept of purity and impurity, the concept of joy and suffering is a concept of man and not the concept of – of the divine. It is the concept of the manifest, but not the concept of the manifestor. As we have seen in the analogy that it is the sun itself that draws the vapour and forms the cloud to obscure itself. Now does the sun require obscuration and who sees the sun to be obscured is those that are down here, we – we say there is suffering. We see the suffering and yet, living a relative life, we feel the suffering and we have the ways and means of alleviating the suffering and the ways and means is to meditate the British Meditational Society way (laughs). What is the – oh, it's half past twelve. Shall we --- Public: Thank you very – very much Gururaj. Gururaj: (Laughs) Public: I want to make just a brief announcement, the first announcement is that believe it or not, we start on time and we end on time (laughs). The second announcement is that there's anyone <1:26:41.3> we have some counsellors that would be available in the annex back here, they can come after we’ve broken up the meeting and meet with the counsellors back here and find out abou t introductory lectures and courses that are being offered. So this is the annex and I think we won't be meeting back here until 2:30, is that right? Sorry 2:30, right. So the doors will be opened again at 2:00 o’clock so that everyone could be in and be settled by 2:30 and we’ll continue again at 2:30. Thank you very much.
27. SA76-01 Gururaj: Could we end with a short prayer? Public: < 1:27:26.6 > Gururaj: Could we end with a very short prayer? Prayer for peace? Public: Yes < 1:27:33.3 > short prayer. Gururaj: < recites prayer >
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