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1. SA76- 07 Gururaj: Good, so what shall we discuss this morning? Public: Gururaj, I wonder if I could ask < 0:00:06.8 > question and it ’ s to do with obviously spiritual evolution and what interests me is how to formulate this. There are many – many – many religions in the world’s many parts and many have a sort of < 0:00:31.0 > figurehead like a Buddha or Christ or < 0:00:35.8 > whatever. Now what is the essential difference between a person say having a faith in Christianity and believing in a man like Christ as a saviour and say having somebody who is alive. Now because although we have – you have discussed this to some extent with us, what interest me more is, what are the mechanics of a person to feeling growth through say Christianity because a lot of people talk about being saved and they’re usually very – very sincere and very sincere about it so they have some deep experience and I wondered if this is in any way direct contact with what they believe is actually happening? In other words, contact with Christ figure? Gururaj: Yes, true. Now of course the gist of the whole matter is in the word you mentioned, sincerity. Now if a person is truly sincere in his belief, he could follow any form of religion he likes. Now religion is a matter of personal choice and not necessarily a matter in which tradition we are born in. We might be born in one tradition and because of our life here on this earth, we might find another tradition which might be appealing for our personal selves and then that tradition could be got too. The whole idea is the sincerity of the person and in the sincerity, he asks himself sincerely what do I want and for my need in spiritual evolution what path should I take? There has been a lot of discrepancies when it has come to formalised religions because many of them have tended to become very dogmatic and as you would know there have been more wars fought in the world in the name of religion than of anything else. Thousands and thousands and thousands of people in the history of the world have been killed, bloodshed in the name of religion. Now that, to my mind, is not real religion. That in my mind is the fostering of a certain belief by certain parties who might have certain interests or they could just be fanatical in their own dogmatic creeds and that they would like to foster upon the world at large and in some religions we have found that this fostering of certain principles has even been done with the sword while truly religion is to be brought about or taught to people with love. So you see the contradiction, its completely opposite on side with the sword when the essence of truth should be promulgated, propagated, expounded with deep love. Now we cannot blame some of the fanatics too because they have a belief that it is only in this way will I fi nd my salvation, by all means they are entitled to their belief, but belief is not enough. If we ask ourselves the question, “Why do we believe?” we will find that we believe in things because we have been mentally conditioned to that belief. What are the conditioning factors? It could be where we were born, to which parents we were born, to the society we live in, what the

3. SA76- 07 and the guidance of th e major religions by all means and any person that pursues Christianity, that pursues Hinduism , that pursues Islam, they are to be encouraged in their paths. They are never to be discouraged, it is a fallacy as far as we are concerned to say, this path is wrong and that path is right or this path is better than that path. It is a fallacy because essentially all the truths are one. We, in our foundation, through our meditational practices, we want to find the essence of religion. We do not go to the mango orchard, this is a story from Ramakrishna where some of the scientists went there and they took out the notebooks and start counting the branches and noted down it had 50 branches, another one started counting all the leaves. Fine. But the sensible one that wanted the essence of the mango tree plucked the mango, sat in the corner and enjoyed the mango. He is the practical man. So we in our foundation do not deny any religion, we encourage it if a person has sincerity, that word again, to follow a certain path, he is to be encouraged and we try, perhaps to lead the person towards greater clarity of thinking wherever possible where we say, “Fine your path is good, but let us now discover the essence. Let us eat the mango instead of counting the leaves and the branches.” So these are the ways of man in trying to meet his maker. This is the purpose of creation. This is the expression of creation and the expression, the inherent quality is there to return to the maker. To merge with the maker. To become one with the maker and why do we do that? Because its inherent in our nature and one of its attributes of the nature is happiness. It is a constant search for happiness and happiness can only be found if you know the essence of things. If you know the cause of things, then only happiness is found. Otherwise what happens, counting the leaves and the branches, we are dwelling on surface level. We are dwelling on surface level without going to the depth. The mango tree grows for the purpose of expressing itself in mango so that man can enjoy the sweet mango. There again, a person does not need to be an intellectual giant. No, he does not need to be an intellectual giant to appreciate the mango and what do the person, a layman, therefore in our teachings here we try to range from the man in the street right to the university professor. The man in the street wants to know according to his faith and his given ways means, techniques, practices wh ere he could realise his faith and his believes so that one day he will know the university professor likes to dissect things, break it up into bits and pieces and we help him to analyse and break things up into bits and pieces, but in the end when he starts knowing, we show him how to put the pieces back again. So to find divinity, one does not need any particular qualification. Can be the street sweeper and can be the professor. It is inherent right of every man to know that which is within himself to find the kingdom which is within. Now in, as I’ve always said before, our practices, our meditations and the little bit of wisdom that is imparted here helps one to achieve that aim and as we understand more with the mind and as we feel more with the heart a simultaneous development of mind and heart, makes it conducive for that Christ, that Krishna, that Buddha that is within us to express itself and it is giving nature

4. SA76- 07 or godhead, its fullest expression in our lives that we can say life has been well lived. Then we are living only. Otherwise we are just dilly-dallying – dilly-dallying. Now what happens with dilly-dallying? We bring miseries upon ourselves, yes. We dilly-dally around, we bring miseries upon ourselves, we’ve all kinds of problems because we do not want to go to the essence of things. That’s the only reason. That is the only reason why man suffers today. So if divinity is inherent in man, then know you this that bliss is also inherent in man because divinity is bliss and it is our dilly-dallying, beating around the bush, counting all the branches and the leaves and not eating the mango that makes us suffer. And I’m sure nobody would find eating leaves or biting of pieces of the branches would give him the pleasure that the mango gives. So therefore we dive deep within ourselves and these spiritual practices are the keys – is the key to open that within ourselves. To allow divinity to give itself its fullest expression, we don’t block the way. Now what happens is this that our minds become expanded and our hearts open up. These are the two most important facets in a human being’s life, the mind and the heart. When they are properly opened, then a person’s actions in life, his deeds becomes spontaneously good. A person’s deeds are not good in this life because his mind and heart, they both are blocked. The petrol does not run smoothly through the carburettor so the car does not perform well, lot of trouble on the road. So to repeat again, with our practices we have the way to open the mind and the heart whereby our actions become good, spontaneous, life supporting, in tuned and in line with nature. These are the mechanic s and this is the practical essence and basis underlying all religions. You can believe in Buddha, you can believe in Mohammed, you can believe in Christ, in Krishna, it does not matter. These great personages, if they existed, we shall not dispute the fact of its – of its historicity, it’s not necessary, but these can also be regarded as symbols to whom we pay one pointed attention and by paying one pointed attention to a personage, we could be able to follow his injunctions and teachings which could be suitable to us and that makes us better people. That makes us better people. So little effort in our waking state of life, it is very good to have a picture of Christ in your home, it is very good to have a picture of Krishna if you believe in him or a picture of Buddha because you pass your living room a hundred times a day and the picture is there and every time you look at it, it serves as a reminder whenever I see the picture of Christ, it produces the thoughts in my mind it overwhelms me with the idea of love thy neighbour as thyself. Right. Whenever I see the picture of Buddha, I have the idea and I feel it so deeply his feelings of compassion. So these things are not wrong, religions are to be encouraged, they are to be encouraged but the thing to be encouraged most is the sincerity of the person and for the person to strive to find the essence and not be lost in the literal meanings of the messages given in this great books, but what is behind the meanings? The essence and that is what our foundation teaches. Is that alright? Okay, fine.

5. SA76- 07 Public: Beautiful. You explained and – or have you explained the difference between wisdom and knowledge? Gururaj: The difference between wisdom and knowledge, that’s a very – very profound question. Knowledge is something accumulated by the mind, knowledge is something accumulate by the mind and it could help the mind on his spiritual path and it could also retard his progress because to find the essence of things, one cannot do it by knowledge. One cannot do it, when we say knowledge, intellect is associated with knowledge. Sometimes people rely so much on knowledge that they have no standing place with knowledge. They need a ledge whereby they could balance themselves if they want to climb the mountain. Sometimes knowledge becomes know ledge. Yeah, they don’t find a balance, they don’t find a stepping stone. Because as we discussed one day, the mind is a very cunning animal. It can use knowledge for construction and it can use knowledge for distraction. A math scientist invents some great invention whereby he can destroy the world. That came by knowledge he had the making of the atom bomb and the hydrogen bomb, these various laws of splitting the atom etc. were discovered and used to blow up Hiroshima. That’s knowledge, yeah that is knowledge misused. Now we have another kind of knowledge which can produce in you constructive abilities whereby the knowledge of the feelings of others, the knowledge of what consideration is to others, the knowledge of even how superfluous, how not to hurt others, that’s another kind of knowledge. So knowledge, to come down to bare facts can be a tool for destroying and it can be a tool for uplifting, constructing. Knowledge, as I said earlier, the intellect which is associated with knowledge is no criteria for one’s development, spiritual development. As I’ve always said that if that was – if the intellect and the knowledge gained, the accumulation was a criteria for spiritual unfoldment or enlightenment, then every university professor philosophy and there are thousands and thousands in the world, should have been self-realised man – men, but they are not. That is knowledge. Knowledge is an acquisition. You can read a hundred books and have all the knowledge in the head but still remain a donkey as a friend of mine said. Now we come to wisdom. Wisdom is a quality that combines acquired knowledge with the quality of the heart. When the mind and heart has a simultaneous development, when the mind and heart join hands, when thought and word and action become one, there you’d have wisdom. A wise man is a man who speaks not from his mind but from his heart. He has to portray his heart through his mind. That is understood because the mind is capable of verbalising to a certain extent his feelings. So the wise man, every word he says comes from his heart. Now the heart as we know is not the physical organ, the heart is the core of a person’s being and at the core of a person’s being, there’s only one thing that exists, love. There is nothing that exists at the core of a human being other than love

6. SA76- 07 because at the core of the human being, there resides divinity and divinity is nothing else but love. So the wise man having reached the core of his being, the depths of his heart portrays and acts and says and does everything in his existence, motivated, inspired, pushed, compelled, pushed forward further and further through that force of love that dwells in him and that is given off freely for the sake of love. Love inspires, motivates for the sake of itself. Now such people could be ill iterate people. We do know people like Ramakrishna, an illiterate man but every word he said was a word of wisdom. Now how do we get to this wisdom? Everyone wants to become a wise man. How do we become a wise man? A wise man has to work firstly very hard through many – many lifetimes perhaps to gain wisdom. He too might have started with the mind in acquiring superfluous knowledge. Today at universities they might be performing a very useful function, but they tell you about a thing but not really what the thing is. Those are your universities. A wise man is the man that teaches you, tells you what a thing is, the essence of things. We come back to the essence. A person can know everything about something and yet not know what that something is. Good. So in the process of gaining wisdom, at first the mind could be used and with the sense gained by acquired knowledge, some sense gained, he starts realising that this is very superfluous, I must dive – I must dive now deeper within. Then where does he dive to? He dives to the heart. And when he dives to the heart, he activates that heart in welling up through his mind so the knowledge acquired through professors and books and universities assume a different quality. It becomes different because having reached the heart through the various processes of experience, the wise man speaks from a stand of knowingness. He does not speak from what he believes or he does not speak from his faith, he speaks from knowingness. So a wise man speaks from experience in his life and all his various lives which he might have had and that is portrayed, impelled by the quality of love by the heart and using the tool of the mind and some of the knowledge he’ s acquired and he portrays it, gives it off like an ever eternal spring, The spring does not have in mind that I am giving water for the thirsty, no. The spring is unmotivated, it just bubbles up and up and up and it is for us to use that water, that health giving, life giving water. So these are the – this is the difference betwee n knowledge and wisdom and these are the mechanics of how knowledgeable man operates and how a wise man operates. In short, a wise man just loves, and you would find in the life of the wise man that every word he says is something which he has digested – digested and you know food, after you digest food, it permeates every cell in your body, every drop of your blood. So the wise man is a living symbol, a living example of his teachings, of every word he says. He lives his teachings and then he talks about them and he is so fulfilled within himself that he does not need to talk about it. He is so fulfilled, but the force of that hard quality is so – so forceful in him that like the spring he just bubbles over. Whoever wants to use it use it. It just bubbles over. It becomes his nature to be the life giving spring. The life giving spring that could feed and stimulate

7. SA76- 07 the hearts and souls of people so that they too can proceed on the path of evolution to find the essence and not get lost in superfluity. That is how – that is the duty of the wise man. It’s to stimulate the interests because the wise man knows, he sees it, he recognises the divinity in all, he recognises it, he sees it. He does not see a person’s face if it’s pretty or ugly or beautiful or whatever, ah, no – no. He doesn’t see if a man is deaf or blind or crippled. He doesn’t see if a man is rich or poor, he doesn’t even see if a man is moral or immoral, that is not his criteria of judgement. He sees directly to the essence of the person and there he sees the divinity in the person and because he is a person that has progressed from duality to the unity of life, to the unity of the universe, he shares his heart with that divinity in the other and says, “Thou and I are one.” He says, “Thou and I are one.” These divisions are illusory, they are of the relative plain so when the wise man speaks, he speak not only of having had all the experiences of the relative plain, but also he has combined within himself the absoluteness of life. The absolute plain. The absolute cannot exist without the relative and the relative cannot exist without the absolute. To him it’s a full range, a divisionless range, there’s no demarcating line. Who can ever say what time the day ended and night began imperceptibly the day merges into night and imperceptibly the night merges into dawn, into day and that is his life of joy. That is the difference between the knowledgeable man, the man of knowledge, the university professor and the man of wisdom. Now the man of wisdom too has gone through a lot of trials and tribulations, perhaps not in this life, perhaps in this life he might have been born near perfection, but in previous lives, here he too, like all has gone through trials and tribulations. He too has had to go through the natural processes of evolution to reach the stage where he is. Oscar Wilde, a great English playwright, Oscar Wilde, he wrote a play, a woman of no importance. I don’t agree with the title because everyone is of the utmost importance. Yeah, and mostly women so, they are the creators of this world. When the womanhood of this world improves to a better quality, this world will improve to a better quality because what a woman can impart to a child, no one else can. Good. Now in this play Oscar Wilde makes one of his characters say that there is no saint that did not have a past, and there is no sinner that does not have a future.it is very true. So even the wise man has trodden the same path that we all are trading and because he has trodden the sane path, he knows the problems, he knows the problems of the other wayfarers and because of that love, he extends his hands and says, “Come brother, come sister this is the way, easiest way perhaps and you’ll love it, be in my company.” He says that because of love. Okay? Fine. Public: The question arises then is knowledge inborn or should it be acquired?

8. SA76- 07 Gururaj: The question arises from what? Does the question arise from the question or does the question arise from your heart? Do you want to be answered on the mind level or the heart level? Nevertheless this is a – this is a very interesting point. This is a very very interesting point. Say that again, is knowledge -- Public: < 0:36:40.1 > university professor you talked about believed that knowledge should be acquire d. Gururaj: Yes. Public: Then the – then the other, it’s like language, is language < 0:36:50.8 > Gururaj: All knowledge is acquisition. Wisdom is inborn. Knowledge is acquisition. Any person with an average bit of intelligence and also retentive memory can sight to you any literature, he can master any language, he can quote all the Vedas and the Bible and the Qurans and all those great books here and now because he has the retentive memory. But that does not mean he is wise. Wisdom is a different quality. So the professors are right when they say that knowledge is to be acquired and for that acquisition we have schools and universities. Now what percentage of people at universities today go for or to gain knowledge? Perhaps one percent. Go to a university to gain knowledge, they wanted knowledge, they would go to a guru. They go to find a means of livelihood. They go to acquire some sort of knowledge whereby they will make a livelihood a living not for the sake of knowledge. They might be intensely interested in a certain subject, they might be intensely interested in a certain subject and because of that interest they pursue that line of study and become a doctor or become a teacher or whatever, or an architect, but who – what percentage can honestly say that I go to university for the sake of gaining wisdom? They go to university to acquire knowledge so that they can make a living and many of them make a mess of it. How many doctors are there in this world that truly and faithfully follow the oath they take? As soon as they hear the sound of money jingling, they forget the oath (laughs) oh yes. Now that happens – that happens all the time. So acquisition of knowledge has its uses but when a person tries to dive deeper and find the essence of things, he bec omes a happy man. He becomes a joyful man because he finds the essence of it. Can anyone say that these academics that have acquired knowledge in these various fields are happy people? Can anyone say that that they are very happy people? That they are more happier than the cobbler or the carpenter or the street sweeper? Can anyone say that? Is the criteria of happiness a double garage in front of your house? Your two cars? Or a home with eight bedrooms? An eight and a half bathrooms? (Laughs) that is not the criteria. They go to university to learn a trade or a profession to

10. SA76- 07 between an animal and a human is this that he human has a thinking mind, he has a rational mind, he has the power of analysis, he has the power of discrimination. If we take that away, then we are nothing other than animals, two legged ones. Fine. Now in this story, it’s a very beautiful story, I do agree with that but I’m not entitled to pass an opinion on that because I have not met that cow that was saved. But here, yes, I like to speak of my own experiences always, always. I – I cannot tell you that the cow skipped the whole human kingdom, the whole range of the human kingdom from the primitive man right to the godman and the cow skipped al l that and became self-realised. It might have been a cow self- realisation (laughs). Look – look the idea, if you – now if we take a monkey – now if a monkey -- let’s assume this, if a monkey has thinking ability, to him his god would be a super monkey, yes. If it’s a fish, the idea of the fish, the god of the fish would be a super fish. Perhaps this cow went to become a super cow. But nevertheless we have some fun as well, we don’t always be serious, we – we – yes – we – we must laugh, its – it’s a good exercise for the lungs (laughs) and it also calms the mind, yes. It’s a – it’s a good medicine – good medicine. Public: Like you just told me super cow < 0:45:47.8 > Gururaj: (Laughs) beautiful – beautiful. Nevertheless what could mean here? Now this is based entirely upon Hindu theology which I might not necessarily agree with. The Hindus believe that you can be born into a human kingdom and if you do not live a good life, if you do something wrong, you can degenerate, retrogress in to the animal kingdom. They do believe that. I personally have the ideas of progressive evolution that once you have been born into the stage of man, you become man – man – man and a better man because whatever experience we have in life must have some bearing on our evolution. It is a fact that we can dwell on a horizontal level for a while, that the next life could be very similar to this life we have. It could just be an extension of the same pattern. Now that is living on the horizontal level, but that is not retrogression. If you live a good life, you – you develop in a vertical range, you walk vertically. Not, you don’t stay horizontally. Now to come back to this Hindu theology, they say if you live a bad life, you can be reborn as an animal. Now in this case it’s a very beautiful story, it’s very poetic. It could be that this person might – this cow when it was a highly developed sage in a previous life, might have made one mistake and had to go through the cow experience to reach self- realisation. But it does not mean that the whole human kingdom has been skipped. He, according to Hindu theology, retrogressed, fell down. Now look at the beautiful nature of the cow, a cow, if you look at it, its eyes its so beautiful, so kind. It is so meek and mild. Perhaps this enlightened sage or near enlightenment might have been so arrogant. He might have been spiritually proud. He might have been arrogant and he might have had to learn that lesson, that one lesson of humility, spiritual humility. It’ s

11. SA76- 07 good to have pride of wealth, beauty, whatever, but the worst pride is spiritual pride. The worst – the worst. So it – that is possible, but then I would say it is conjecture, it is conjecture, it is a certain interpretation of the story. It might have been a realised sage who had to learn this little experience and become an animal, a cow and after that crossing that little stumbling block, became self-realised and merged away into god, became one with the universe. That’s possible. Nevertheless, even there is a story, we can always create another story to substantiate the first story. Okay? Fine. Public: Gururaj, < 0:49:42.2 > elaborate on the cunning of the mind. Now could you possibly explain them again < 0:49:49.7 >. Gururaj: Beautiful. Public: I – I feel, most of us will experience this – let’s say an over active mind comes to < 0:50:02.5 > or something and when we gather there, we say to ourselves < 0:50:08.3 > and your mind is in a turmoil, you just can’t get to sleep. Then you might have a problem the following day that you < 0:50:17.7 > your mind what you gonna do the following day. Gururaj: True. Public: So could you explain to – to me how – how the mind can be sort of subdued so that you can bring on a peaceful sleep? Gururaj: Ah, one word, meditation. Now the mind as we conceded is a very cunning animal. The mind is not a tangible quantity. The mind is not something that can be weighed or measured by the means we have. The mind is a compact collection of thoughts. What are thoughts? Thoughts are conditionings, thoughts that were formulated impressed itself upon us in the form of conditionings. Conditionings in turn are nothing more than the impressions of past experiences. Now the range here his very wide. The range could extend to the environment here in this life. To our parents. To our social standards, to our upbringing and the way we live normally. We live because the mind is conditioned in such a way. Therefore we live in the manner we live in. Now we can go further back to even previous existences if you do believe in them that today we are the sum total of all those impressions in us which in Sanskrit is called samskaras and which constitute the body of the mind. Now what produces the turbulence in the mind is the conditionings. The mind functions. There is a part of the mind that does and there is a part of the mind that observes. Now these are not divisions that you measure, but these are too inherent qualities and they’re in that thing called the mind. One does, the other observes.

12. SA76- 07 Now the observing side of the mind does not necessarily agree with the doing side of the mind. The observing side of the mind has a great quality of neutrality. It observes outside. The doer does things because of all his conditionings and he automatically does things, but the observing part of the mind observes and says, “Oh, the doer side did this and I disagree.” The disagreement produces conflict between the observing side of the mind and the doing side of the mind and the other name for conflict is disturbance. The other name for conflict is turbulence. This turbulence. So when the mind functions, not as a unit, when the mind functions in complete harmony between observer and doer, then the mind is calm. There’s no turbulence. You have you game of bridge in the evening and when you go to bed, the observer analysed that the doing part of the mind played a wrong hand. The doing part of the mind was observed by the observing part that it played a wrong hand because of analysis. Now this is necessary that if the observing part of the mind fully understands, remember the observing part also has its limitations, also has its limitations. We are only cre at ing these divisions for the purpose of explanation. Now when the observing part of the mind finds out completely the reason why the doer part played the wrong hand, it gives it the message not to repeat the mistake again. So it helps – it helps. But now what we have to try to do is to produce a harmony so that this turbulence and this disturbance does not arise again. We have to calm, we have to still the ripples in the pond so that the doing part of the mind and the observing part of the mind work hand in hand and in harmony. Now this is done through our practices of meditation. If you are on a mantra meditation for example, the mantra in your mind becomes with repetition of it becomes finer and finer and finer. It becomes so fine that it becomes one with the observing part of the mind. It stimulates the energies in the observing part of the mind and sends forth those energies to the – to the turbulent part of the mind. To the doing part. And with the sending of these forces to the doing part, the active mind, it stills the active mind until its gradual process, he takes time, regular practice that the mind can become so stilled that you will find, in the beginning, thoughts come one after the other, one on top of each other, they com e but with sufficient practice, with sufficient diving, you will find bigger and bigger gaps produced between one thought to the other thought. You will find at a certain place that there is no thought that which the Zen Buddhist describes as no mind. You reach a place where there is no thought. Now these gaps, a beginner when he starts meditating will – with the refinement of the mantra find a very small gap, very momentary, but he has dived and in that one dive he brings up something to –to stimulate the doing part of the mind and gives it some calmness, little balm – little balm. One – one – one teaspoon of medicine. He still has to drink the whole bottle to be cured. One little teaspoon. Fine. There comes a time when people get puzzled when they reach a stage where the mind becomes still and that is – that is where guidance is required. That is where explanation is required by a qualified person. Teaching of meditation is done and according to tradition, the holy

13. SA76- 07 tradition, the Vedic tradition is always done under proper supervision and not just by anyone who studies little course and has experienced nothing, knows nothing. Yeah, that are spiritual anilities perhaps and then they teach meditation. When the person finds some difficulty or some experience that requires explanation, those teachers are unable to explain it because they don’t know it. They don’t know it. They have not experienced it. Fine. Now as the gap in the meditation widens, you will know that you’re reaching higher and higher and higher realms of what we call in Sanskrit, Samadhi. In that realm, in that realm your mind will exist without thought and you will exist in a complete blissful state. You, at that time, in that meditation are merged away with divinity. You and the universe have become one. Now sometimes questions are asked of me that “Gururaj, did I transcend?” “Was I unconscious?” or “Did I fall asleep?” These questions arise. These questions arise and the true seeker will ask his guru that I am having these experiences and explain them to me. We in our foundation just don’t teach something and say, “Right, good bye.” No, it is always guided and the centre’s always opened for any questions that anyone wants to know and ask. So there, in such a case every person is dealt with according to the merit of the person, according to the evolution of the person and at every time one step ahead. Lead thou me on, kindly light. One step enough for me and that is how on the spiritual path meditational – meditations are guided and advised upon so that we – we do want to say this that when a person does a practice, that person must understand the practice. They must come to know what their practice is and not believe or have faith in the practice. They must come to know. They must come to know what their practice is, what it means and how it affects their daily living. So the meditators as you know, are always welcomed to drop in at the office and of course a phone call beforehand is always most welcome because there might be other appointments or I might have to rush away to – to someone somewhere who needs me and a phone call is always welcome and to sit down and have a chat with me half an hour, hour and sometimes the meditators come and we start talking and hour, two hours passes and it seems as if it was just five minutes. We get absorbed. Another form of meditation that you do in the presence of a guru while talking to him. These things happen. Okay? Fine. Public: Gururaj, would you tell me then too would meditation < 1:02:42.1 > who suffers chr onically from insomnia or a person who’s insomniac < 1:02:48.3 > can you tell? Gururaj: Oh yes, it – it has helped very very much and very very strongly in those areas because insomnia comes about when a person’s mind cannot be stilled. The mind, as you said yourself is so overactive that it cannot rest and the pre- requisite of sleep is calmness of the mind and body. Now meditational practices do calm the mind and body. It is observable and some other organisations went through to a lot of trouble to –to have these things observed by scientists

14. SA76- 07 and charts and things have been drawn up which have proven that meditation does calm the mind and body and that’s as far as their practices go perhaps we – we don’t want to pass judgements cause our aim is to reach the kingdom of heaven that is within which is of a far higher category of a – it is an extension of other movements and other systems that aim at certain levels only. We aim at the full range. From the primitive man to godman and unto god we become one within, until then that is our range. That’s our range. Good. Fine. Anything else? Public: Gururaj. Gururaj: Yes. Public: < 1:04:19.5 > affects mentally and physically? Gururaj: Yes, pranayama if done correctly can have mental and physical adverse effects, very true. Public: < 1:04:33.8 > Gururaj: Pranayam is a practice that must be individually given. One form of pranayam might be good for you, but at all not good for another person. Public: < 1:04:46.5 > gururaj, what actually happens to an actual breathing t hat cause s adversity? Gururaj: That causes the adversity? Public: Yeah. Gururaj: The aim of pranayama is to bring a rhythm in your system. The purpose of pranayama is to integrate the mind, body and the soul of a person. It brings about a unity, a oneness in the person. It brings about an integration, it brings about a balance and because of the balance, it brings about stability by which every area of the human beings life is improved. But now when a person who is imbalanced, to a certain – how many are there that are balanced? I only know a handful in this world. When a person is imbalanced and he does the wrong technique of pranayama which might not be

15. SA76- 07 suitable for him, he creates a greater imbalance. So therefore pranayama should ideally be taught by someone who knows the science. Right. Good. Public: < 1:06:03.4 >you said that the quality of women improved < 1:06:09.9 > Gururaj: (Laughs) Beautiful. Public: Gururaj, < 1:06:19.3 > Gururaj: (Laughs) oh, Douglas! Public: < 1:06:26.8 > Gururaj: Yeah. Publ ic: < 1:06:31.4 > problem today in women’s liberatio n in western world. Could you explain that statement in light of dharma? Gururaj: What you’re trying to ask is this, what my stand is on women’s l ib ? (Laughs) Well , when it comes to women, it’s always best to have no stand. (Laughs) Nevertheless, umm --- I think I have said this before, according to the background I come from, we do believe that a woman is to be worshipped as a goddess and she in turn worships her husband as a god. There comes such a beautiful communion between them. And this is said in the manusmriti, the great law giver, he said that wherever a woman is held in honour, there the gods reside. Very good. No what does the woman do in turn? We hold our women in honour and by that the gods do reside there. Now what does the women do? Specially in the modern world they want women’s lib. They want – lib stands for liberation, liberation means freedom. Freedom from what? That is the question to be asked. What freedom does a woman want and if the woman wants freedom, from what do they wish to be free? Do they wish to be free of their husband’s love or to need to love their husbands? Is that the kind of freedom they want? Do they want to have the freedom to equal pay for equal work? That’s another freedom. Right. Do they want to have the same political social environmental work status which the man has? That’s also a freedom.

16. SA76- 07 Now there are many other facets. We should analyse each facet on its own merit. To have freedom to love one’s husband is a great freedom. Not not to love, but to love one’s husband. One finds freedom in loving the husband and not in not loving the husband? If this idea is extended upon, this wanting to love or not wanting to love the husband can very easily degenerate into permissive love. Can very easily degenerate. So even the freedom that the women want, the liberation they want must be like a poem where the poem is set in a particular meter and yet free in expression. So that is freedom with a meaning, freedom with a purpose where you are guided by the meter, the plan, the pattern of the poem and yet the thought expressed in there is so free. That is the freedom that women should need. But the freedom that; the freedom that’s demanded today they not looking for freedom, they are looking for bondage. If a man earns a thousand Rand a month doing a particular job, the woman says, “I also want a thousand Rand.” Good. That’s a fair demand if she does the same work. If she does the same work, if she has the same ability and the same strength, that is a fair demand. But firstly if a woman can manage, why does she have to go to work? They’re homes where the assistance of the wife is required to supplement the income. We understand that. There are women placed in certain circumstances that are forced to go to work. They don’t want to, but they are forced to go to work because of circumstances. We’re not talking of those women now. Let us talk of the woman whose husband earns a very decent salary and is capable of providing for the wife and for the children. But yet in homes like those, the women want to go to work. They want to go to work because they want certain improvements in the house. They want to get all the electrical gadgets which will be labour saving, all the various mechanical things which I’m sure you women know about that’s required in a home and what have you? They want all these labour saving devices why? So that they can go to work. Look at the vicious circle (laughs). Firstly, you go to work to get the labour saving devices. Right? And to upkeep that and pay the instalments you have to go to work. Terrible. Where is the logic? Ah, not only that – not only that. The husband and wife comes home five, half past five in the evening and they are tired so no cooking, they go eat ou t (laughs) in a restaurant. Husband and wife and two children whatever they go eat out and it ’s 15 Rand for the meal, yeah. Public: < 1:12:39.7 > Gururaj: Yeah, and the sales – no. sales tax no some -- Public: Service charge.

17. SA76- 07 Gururaj: Service charge and tax, things like that. Right. Now that woman might be earning say 10 or 12 Rand a day, but they’ll go out for the evening meal and spent 15 Rand. So she becomes a greater burden to the husband, that’s women’ s liberation (laughs). Let’s look at it from another point of view. That 15 Rand spent at a restaurant, cooked in, we cannot be sure how clean those kitchens are, or who cooks that food or what is thrown in the food. That same meal, a better meal could have been cooked at home for 4 Rand, but because th ey go to work, they spent 15 Rand. Now because madam goes to work, what about the children? We got to have a maid, a nanny. And she gets 50 – 60 – 70 Rand, whatever the wages is. Now can anyone tell me that a nanny, how – never mind how good she is, can bring up her children better than one’s own mother? No. No nanny can bring up children better than the mother. The mother knows and understands every movement and the flicker of the eyelid of a child and knows what it means and treats the child with all that love and that is what children need today. Children need loving, not spoiling. That’s something else. Over loving can be very smothering. We’re not talking of that, but children need real, proper loving. Fine. Because the mother – women’s lib, mother has to go to work. Right. The children are brought up by a nanny. Now can you blame society if there’s so much juvenile delinquency? Where is the mother at home? Beautiful cultured woman, well educated, cultured, right. She can put better sense in the mother – in the children, but no, a nanny, an illiterate nanny who might not come form a better culture or what have you? Or else you might not have been a nanny or a maid. The children are entrusted to them. See the vicious circle. The – the – the complete misunderstanding and the wrong set up of society. And so the husband earns a 1000 Rand and the wife earns 4— 500 Rand because she goes to work. So it’s 1500 Rand, but end of the month they’re still broke. That is our modern setup today. Rather for them to make do with the earnings of the husband, and the woman stays at hom e and looks after the children and the husband, what a beautiful home that would be? The primary duty of a woman, she is house orientated, that is her life. She is born with those facilities wit hin her to be able to look after the children and look beautifully after the husband. And when the woman looks after the husband, then the husband can’t but help worshipping the wife as a goddess. It’s a mutual thing – mutual, two way. Public: Gururaj, this is the woman who is educated but has no wisdom. Gururaj: (Laughs) beautiful, yes, educated but has no wisdom, yes. Public: < 1:16:22.4 >

18. SA76- 07 Gururaj:Yeah, yeah. No, has knowledge but no wisdom. That’s what he means. Okay? Right. Shall we break for tea? We ’ll do that. Fine! We’ll break for tea.

2. SA76- 07 environment does for us to condition our thoughts and these various factors go in to make up of belief. But at belief, evolution does not end, at belief one’s spiritual path only begins. Now there is a very favourite story of mine which says if you sit in an air conditioned room, you believe fire is warm. As you go nearer the fire and feel some of the heat, you would have faith to say that fire has heat because you have now experienced what heat is. So you start with belief, believes are many a times based on assumptions, you assume while sitting in an air conditioned room that fire is hot and as you go nearer the fire, you feel the heat s o belief develops into faith but that is still not enough. You still go nearer the fire and become one with the fire. Then you know what heat is. So these are the three stages in man’s evolution. Belief which transforms itself into faith and faith goes further into knowingness and it is at the point of knowingness that a person’s spiritual ideals could be realised. Now what could be a person’s spiritual ideal? He wants to evolve. The purpose of evolution is to cease all dualities in our life and become one with that Supreme Being or supreme power or divine power. You may call it what you want and that is the end and aim of spiritual evolution and that is the end and aim of all man. Now why does man want this? Why should he want to return to the source he has come from? What impels him? What compels him? What coerces him to choose this path? Really speaking he just cannot help it because of the divinity that resides in a person, the divinity which is the inherent quality of the person becomes that impelling f or ce and knowingly or unknowingly, consciously or unconsciously he strives to become one with that divinity. Now in his striving towards that divinity, he has to learn. Now the learning process could believe with – could start with belief which goes to faith and which ends in knowingness. So these, very briefly speaking, are the mechanics in the evolution of man which has as a foundation the inherent desire, inherent attraction. It is quite natural for a magnet to draw iron filings to itself, it is the nature. So man’s nature is to return to this godhead and the godhead could be symbolised through Krishna, Christ, Buddha. It makes no difference. The ideal and aim is the same. People only use various means, we want to go to Wynberg so we might take <0:09:02.2>, we might take the main road or we might take Prince George’s Drive. The aim is to reach Wynberg and why does one person choose this path and another person choses another path? There reason being that he chooses a certain path because of his temperament . Certain ideas suite him better. His mental conditioning is such that he would prefer <0:09:36.5>Drive and he could get a better view from <0:09:40.0> Drive. The other person might want the main road. He’d like to pass all the shops and all the motor cars and all the people walking around, he might like that. So we have in the spiritual evolution of man, we have a factor called choice and everyone should have his choice. We might have a dozen major religions in the world, but I always say if there are 4,000 million people in this world, there should be 4,000 million religions because every man must formulate his own power. Naturally he will take the assistance

9. SA76- 07 make a living that will give them some sort of happiness perhaps and their idea of happiness depends upon their monetary values, depends upon their desire and desires breeds. One desire leads to another. We discussed this last week I think. One desire leads to another and like that it goes on and on, but the real seeker on the spiritual path, he tries to find the essence. Never mind what religion he chooses, never mind what philosophy he chooses but through that means he wants to get to the essence. So you are right in saying that the professors say you acquire knowledge, you acquire knowledge. And as we said before that at universities we learn about things and not what the thing really is. Okay? Fine. Public: Gururaj, if – if man goes to such ups and downs < 0:41:35.5 > really intense experience in life before he gains this wisdom. What could it be, if one can speak of divine will, then what could it be that would allow, say an animal, to comple tely skip the human stage, I’m thinking in mind when you mentioned Ramakrishna and in context with what we were discussing. Gururaj: When we -- Public: There was a c ow that < 0:42:05.1 > it was a very – very – very old c ow and < 0:42:11.1 > and told hi s chelas the following day when it had passed < 0:42:20.6 > would not need to go through the human stage of evolution. Now that’s one incident with the principle involved. Gururaj: Now, right, do you believe that story? Public: < 0:42:33.7 > (laughs) Gurura j: Right, you – you – if you believe -- Public: < 0:42:43.4 > (laughs) Gururaj: If you believe the story, have you got faith in the story? From there we proceed, do you know it? Now when you say, “I know it, ” then I must have been there and experienced the evolution of the cow and none of us has done that. Nevertheless the point is this that to gain experiences, one has to reach the most important, one of the most important manifestations in the path of evolution and that is the human kingdom. Now I’ve alwa ys said this before that the difference


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