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1. UK 78- 44 Gururaj. What shall we talk about this morning? Why do you seem so hot? Don't you ever take your coat off? Be comfortable? (General laughter) Can you see what's written on there? Pure nectar. Of course, nectar, that is the English translation of Amrit. And one of our meditators in America, who is also a very, very good worker, Barbara Fish, she's very, very fun loving, she sent me a gift. She made a beautiful little bag, and then there were little sweets in there with all kinds of writing on them. So she writes a letter with it. It says, ‘I know that people in the office find things always very boring, so here's your personal 'I Ching'. Someone comes along, you take out a sweet and reads ‘Oh, is this what it is for today?’ (Gururaj laughs). So, Barbara sends Amrit a gift of pure nectar. Amrit ............ (Inaudible) Gururaj. Good. Fine. Who'll start us off with the first question this morning? Questioner. You have said that there are only Gururaj. Do you want to speak into the microphone? It’s okay, fine. Questioner. Guruji, you have said that there are only seven self-realised beings in the world at one time, but we know that before this state of unity-consciousness, there are states which we might classify as cosmic-consciousness or God- consciousness. How many people attain these states of consciousness, and is it possible for somebody to be born very close to cosmic-consciousness and reach it in early life, but just regard it as a normal state and never become involved in spiritual movements or ideas about enlightenment? Gururaj. That is very true. Next question. (General laughter) Yes. There are people, through the efforts of their previous lives who are born into this life very near Cosmic Consciousness or even God-Consciousness. Just the little bit that is left behind, the little experience that is just required to bring a person into that state. Now this is very aptly demonstrated by the prodigies we have. For example, Yehudi Menuhin at the age of four could play all the Symphonies and things like that. So it just means that there has been a whole build-up in the musical field where, even before the child gains any understanding, he is able to perform such music. Good. So that very child that has achieved a certain stage in whatever field, especially in our case when it comes to the field of Cosmic-Consciousness, God-consciousness. Fine. They have to find the channel to be born into this life, so that that little bit that was left could be realised.

2. UK 78- 44 Now then you will say that, if one has to choose the channel, does the channel also need to be so highly evolved? Now there is a saying that ‘Blessed be the mother of such a great man’. There is a great truth in that, but that does not require the ultimate or total purity of the mother and father. But within the mother and father there are certain genetic qualities, certain sets of chromosomes and genes, where a proper combination can take place, whereby they could become a vehicle to bring forth a very realised child. In our movement, I have observed some children that are very highly evolved, even more highly evolved than their parents. Yes, I have seen that. As I said, what happened in those circumstances, that the parents contained within themselves the various sets of genes and the right combination was required for that entity to take birth, to take form. This could lead one to another question. When does life begin? Would you like me to go on that? Good. When does life begin? Is the time when, - I'm putting a totally different light on this subject, it's an absolutely new angle, - does life start when the sperm penetrates the ovum? Does all the samskaric value start from there? Does the soul enter the physical entity at the time of the sperm entering the ovum? Now many people say it does. That is not true. That is not true. Now, the mechanics of the whole procedure is this, that all those various qualities that make the man and the woman exist in a certain formation, in a certain combination, which makes it conducive for that soul to be there at that time. Now this works in such a way that our perceptions only lead us to three dimensions, but do you know that all around us there are millions of souls right here in this very hall? Now if you study matter, if you take an atom and put it under a great microscope, you will find that there are vast amounts of spaces, vast, vast spaces there. I had a beautiful experience in America. I was taken to Disneyland, and the first ride we took was through a snowflake, one snowflake. It was constructed in such a way that it took you right through - of course greatly, greatly magnified for it is contrived of course, but it gives you an idea - it takes you through the snowflake and you'd be amazed to see the vast spaces and the various formations in this tiny little snowflake. This of course is just a demonstration of what an atom can be, and the vast spaces that are contained in the atom. Likewise the human body is composed of atoms, cells, and within these cells there are vast, vast spaces. So there are millions of souls interpenetrating us all the time. Another dimension does not exist anywhere else. That is what I'm trying to say. All dimensions co-exist, and even within the confines of time and space all these various dimensions are coexisting. The problem is that our awareness, our perception, is not refined enough or unfolded enough to see the other dimensions. For example, we have a person who could see auras. What that person is actually doing, it's a very natural phenomenon, now that person can see in a different dimension. Fine. And as we said before, our

3. UK 78- 44 dimension, our sight or our sense, is limited to three dimensions only, but then we cannot deny the factor that the other dimensions are not existing here and now. So every dimension you can think of, to its most, most subtlest level, is here and now. The problem is that people cannot perceive those dimensions. And it is only by being able to perceive those multi-dimensional beings, that one really perceives what Divinity is all about. And man in his evolution is progressing towards that perception, where that dimension which is an unreality now, becomes a reality. Good. Now, with these millions and millions of souls just floating around throughout space, ready to be born, just ready to be born, get attracted to its own like. Birds of a feather float together. Right. So each and every one here is surrounded by souls of a very like nature, and those souls of a very like nature are interpenetrating them because every human being is capable of having within themselves or through them, various dimensional entities. So at the time of conception, at the time of conception that very entity that is to take birth is contained within the sperm, is contained within the sperm. You cannot separate the sperm from the entity that is to be born. If you separate that energy or that soul that is to be born from the sperm, then that sperm will not have life. And this is what physicians or physicists still have to discover. So within the various secretions of the body, all the souls are there. Just imagine, that at every ejaculation a person ejaculates three to five hundred million sperms. And why does only one sperm reach the ovum and not the others? Because that one particular sperm out of five hundred million has that certain make up where that soul that is to take birth becomes one with that particular sperm. Now, as there are various types of human beings, all those five hundred million sperms form a world unto its own. It is a world, a total functioning world, and each sperm, if science reaches the stage of evaluating them or examining them individually, will find that every sperm has a unique individual quality. It has a unique individual quality because they ar e all separate, living entities. Within that sperm is contained the entire consciousness of the whole universe, and in spite of containing the consciousness of the entire universe, there are certain differentiations because of the genetic value of the parent. That causes the differentiation, and that is why science has reached to the level of the hereditary stages. They go just as far as the hereditary stage and not further, although there's great value in what they say about the hereditary stage. We, in our deeper studies, we know there's something far more to that than meets the eye. So at the time of conception everything is there. Life is there, the soul is there, all the samskaric values are there, all those millions of lifetimes that have been lived, all those experiences gained, is in that tiny sperm that is not perceivable by the eyes and one has to use a microscope. So, to repeat again, that for a highly evolved soul to be born, he does not require parents of a totally high calibre. Some of the great men in the world have been born of adultery. I

4. UK 78- 44 know this, I know this. But that does not alter the value of the inner self of the parents. The actions which they have performed in their lives, in this case a bad action, has its value in samskaras only and it does not touch the purity of the spirit within. And it is the samskaric values that are contained within man himself - the parent in this case - remains but a block, remains a block for his total unfoldment to the spirit. So in this way, a child can be born from the lowest parents, that might not have great intellectuality, for example, and yet the child becomes a great intellectual. We have seen this. We have seen this demonstrated to us over and over and over again. A spiritual giant, a spiritual giant like Buddha, for example, was born of a king and a queen whose whole lives were devoted to entire materialism but within them, the required genetic combination was there for Buddha to use them as a vehicle. I've said this before, that parents don't choose their children, children choose their parents. Now when the soul is to be reborn, the individual soul, the Atman the Jivatman, I'm sorry - the Jivatman, meaning the individual soul, when it is to be reborn, sometimes it has to wait a long time, in our sense of the word time, to find the right vehicle. There is such a precision, there is such a precision beyond our conception that if there is just a fraction, if you are just a fraction out, that child will not be born through you. So therefore, therefore we are grateful in having these entities being born through us. Why do you think we care for our children? Why do you think we really care for our children? It is an inner sense of gratitude. Man might not be conscious of this, but it is an inner sense of gratitude that ‘Thank you, Lord, for using me as a vehicle for this other entity to come forth’. Of course people only think of the surface values, or of the joy that a little child could give them - they only think of that. Some think that, oh, by having the child it will make the bond of our marriage more stronger. These are just surface values, surface values. Many people have many other reasons. Many people have many other reasons for the child but the real reason, although it might be unconscious, is a sense of gratitude, that a person feels inwardly, within himself, that ‘I have become a vehicle for another entity to be brought into this world. I am being used by Divinity to further his creation’. So Divinity has endowed upon man the creative ability. Why? Because man is essentially Divine. You see? You see? So to come back. Man can be born at a very high level of consciousness. Who would say a carpenter, an ordinary carpenter, could give birth to a Christ? Doesn't it defy one's imagination? Yes, yes. So, after birth, when the child starts recognising its own consciousness, the consciousness of the child does not develop, the consciousness of the child unfolds. He is put, because of his own karma, own samskaric values, that the child unfolds according to its needs. One child might need, that one entity might need, for example, rich parents, for it to unfold. Some entity might need very dire circumstances to be brought up in, in poverty, in ill health or whatever adversities for it to unfold. So when a child is born to the so called lowest of the lowest, or a child is born to the so called highest of the highest, has no effect on the child

5. UK 78- 44 whatsoever as an individual entity. Because from the lowest rungs, great men could be born and from the highest rungs, you can produce a whole lot of loafers. We know that, we know that, we see it around us. You see. So, there are people, more people in the world that have some form of Cosmic Consciousness. There are still less people that have God-consciousness. And there is one, perhaps, in a thousand million - you do the arithmetic - that attains unity-c onsciousness or self-realisation. It is like our pyramid that we always speak about, very broad at the base, and tapers up to a point at the top. At the top is the one with unity-consciousness, and as we go down its sides and the pyramid becomes broader and broader, those could in our analogy, reflect the states of consciousness of humanity on this Earth. Now when it comes to saying that at any time on this earth, there could never be more than seven people who could reach self-realisation. This has been said many times, over and over again, in esoteric literature, this is very true. This is very true. As light can refract itself in seven different colours, so the same Divinity divides itself up into seve n aspects of himself. That is the reason. So that these various aspects, though each one in its right fully-realised, expresses a different mode, a different way, so that the combination of it all forms a wholeness, and yet at the same time, paradoxically enough, each entity is a wholeness in itself. Does that answer you? Questioner. I was wondering about, whether these people had reached cosmic consciousness when they were born would necessarily recognise this and become involved in spiritual ideas .....? Gururaj. Yes, let us look at that aspect. Good. Now if a person is born in a realised state, Christ was born in a realised state, that cosmic that cosmic state that you talk of. So was Buddha born in a cosmic state? Fine, but have we ever seen a teacher in this world that started teaching spiritual values - we are talking of great Masters now - until they've reached thirty and over? Now the reason for that is this, that from that vastness of our ice cream cone, they come down to the narrow point to become embodied. Now just imagine the enormity of the experience that that being goes through. So, it requires time, it requires circumstances, it requires perhaps in many cases a lot of suffering for that entity to know himsel f again. Now that is very different from the ordinary man that is reaching towards self-realisation. The ordinary man has to unfold himself to reach the realisation but the realised man having come through the vastness to the little living entity, has to shed off all the dirt it has gathered on the journey. So that requires time in our sense of the word and in that thirty odd years of time, it sheds off the dross. It sheds off the dirt and becomes his real self again.

6. UK 78- 44 There's a fine dividing line between a person reaching realisation in this lifetime and a person that has been born self realised, because from the very moment, from the very moment of his birth, all the experiences the self realised man has, the incarnation has, become of no effect to him. He can perform from childhood anything he likes, any form of karma and yet he is unbound by that karma. He is forever free and never in bondage. He, being born self realised can never retrogress again, while the person that is reaching self realisation can retrogress within that framework that he is born in. So that is the difference, but a period of time is required for the dirt to be washed away and for the incarnation to shine i n his real glory. Then he starts his mission, then he starts his real teaching. Questioner. Would that necessarily involve teaching in spiritual vales or might it be something like painting? Gururaj. A teacher is born to teach, a painter is born to paint. A musician is born to create music. But the spiritual teacher is of a different category to the one who is a sculptor or a musician. The reason is this that the sculptor wants to find realisation through sculpturing - he has not been born self-realised. The painter wants to find self-realisation through the expression of his painting and this applies to the musician. The spiritual Master who is born self-realised, comes with a mission, a mission to teach. When the imbalance is sufficient enough, as said in the Gita, he comes from age to age to teach. That is his job, that is his dharma, that is his purpose. So thereto lies the difference. But in everything man does - that is not talking of the Avatar or the Incarnation, anything a man does, self-realisation can be found. A shoemaker, perfecting his art to such an extent, can find self-realisation through making shoes. Like that, a carpenter can, a hairdresser can. Everyone can, by perfecting his art, by perfecting the work that he is doing. We have mentioned before the story of Milarepa. That is a classic example. His Master made him build fourtee n houses. Every time a house was built he found fault and made him break it down, so that he would build another one. So he'd keep on building and building and building. Two things were happening. One was breaking down the ego, ‘Oh, I've built such a lovely house for my Master’ - but the Master comes and says, ‘Oh no, no, no. No good. Break it down, this is wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong’. So, breaking down the house he was breaking down his ego and in breaking down his ego he was perfecting the house more and more and more. And that is how Milarepa reached perfection, reached self- realisation. See how beautifully it works? It works very, very beautifully. Now we would think, ‘Ah, Milarepa's Master is so cruel, putting him through this’. Now, the person who is not sincere enough, if Milarepa was not sincere enough in his yearning to find perfection, he would have run away after the first house, and said, ‘What a waste of time, let me rather become a building contractor!’ (General laughter). So the sincerity, the application, the perseverance, was required for him to attain perfection. That is how it works, in all cases, in all cases. So through any means whatsoever a person can

7. UK 78- 44 find perfection. Even a housewife, over the kitchen sink, can find perfection, because when she starts realising, washing those pots and pans, when she and the pot and the water and the scourer, when that all becomes one, then there is perfection, there is perfection. Very easy really, try it. Good, next. Questioner. There is a question in relationship to the one you've just answered. In the Scriptures they use a lot of different terms to describe different consciousness levels and so forth. And you've always said that self-realisation is a single state and that's the final state and anything else is like a facet of that, a fragment or a facet of that. And then there's another state that they talk about which is called Jivanmukta, where you're a free soul. Now what is the difference between being a free soul and being in one of these other states we were talking about, god-consciousness or cosmic- consciousness? Gururaj. Beautiful, beautiful. According to eastern philosophy there are only four states of consciousness; the waking state, sleeping state, dreaming state and the fourth state is the Turiya state which is the state that goes beyond the three that we know within our dimensional perspective. Now, the fourth state, the Turiya state, is the state going beyond our dimension, our three-dimensional perspective, is the state into the entirety of things that exist. Now many teachers teach of various different states, cosmic consciousness, God consciousness, Unity consciousness. Good. These states are described for the sake of explanation, for the sake of intellectualising, or else the human mind won't be able to grasp it. There is only one state beyond and that one state includes all the mental gymnastics or intellectual gymnastics that we go through. Because, that cosmic consciousness, or god consciousness, or unity consciousness are intertwined, intertwined. It is like the cook making a pot of soup, lovely liquidised soup. Now, while you're having that soup it might contain all th e ingredients, you are not going to differentiate – ‘Ah, that is a bit of onion, that is a bit of carrot, that's a bit of this, that's a bit of that’. No, it is one soup. One state of consciousness although it comprises of so many different ingredients. Now, when a person reaches cosmic consciousness, there is still some of the mind involved, so you have not reached Turiya, because with the mind you are recognising the separation, but the mind has been expanded to such a level, where, although there is separation, the perception is much vaster than our present narrow perception. That means you can now see this room only but in that awareness or expanded intellect, or expanded mind, you see the whole building at the same time, but that is still not Turiya. Good. Now, after the sense of separation, which is still the mind at the finest level of relativity then a communication occurs that, ‘Why is it separate from me? I must be one with it’. Now that very thought that I must be one with it; when I say thought it still remains on the level of the mind. And then to be come one with that which we think is separate form us, that constitutes God realisation, ‘I and thou’.

8. UK 78- 44 ..... is still at the fine state of relativity. At the finest level of relativity, it takes you one second only from Cosmic consciousness to God-consciousness, not even a second; because these two states are just two aspects of the same thing: one the recognising aspect of the separation, and the second is the desiring aspect of wanting to be one with that. Is that clear? Is that clear? So here the mind is still thinking, ‘There is the universe, and here am I’. And with that thought the feeling is involved where I want to become one with that. So here, thought and feeling are operating simultaneously. Now in the first stage the thought is more powerful, in its cognition of the separation. Then when that cognition becomes intensified, yearns, ’Why must the separation be?’ Then feeling takes over, and feeling becomes dominant. They are existing together - it's just a matter of emphasis. So in Cosmic-consciousness the emphasis is on thought, in God consciousness the emphasis is on feeling. And when that feeling intensifies that "I must be one with that", then automatically, because of the intensity of the feeling, yo u become one with that and that's Unity-consciousness, and that is Turiya. You see. That is the Turiya State, Unity consciousness. So beyond the three there is only one state, and Cosmic consciousness, God consciousness, Divine madness or any of these labels, is still existing at the finest relative level, and that fine relative level is so fine that the entire universe is nothing else but an impulse. There is your God consciousness, just that impulse. And then you have no cognition of the impulse; there's no cognition, there's no recognition. You become the impulse. That's Unity Consciousness. That is Unity Consciousness. Okay. Questioner. Can I ask one question in relation to that? What does Jivanmukta mean? Gururaj. Oh yes, good fine. Jivanmukta means the living free. Jivan means life, Mukta means free. Now a Jivanmukta person, a person that has reached Jivanmukti, is a man that is liberated. Now, liberation is a relative term also, because to recognise liberation, you have the seed within you of bondage, because knowing bondage what would you know about liberation? Without rain what would you know of sunshine? Without heat, what would you know of cold? But there too, at this level, when man becomes liberated, he is unaffected by anything that happens around him. In other words he is beyond the laws of nature as we know them, yet still bound by the finest impulse of the relative. But he can live this life with such joy and such bliss that nothing affects him. The ultimate stage can only come when he becomes that impulse, which is Unity consciousness. The liberated man can exist in God consciousness, but not in Unity consciousness, because in Unity-consciousness, the body is not necessary. The body itself becomes hampering, becomes an

9. UK 78- 44 impediment. That is why a great poetess like Mira says, ‘I do not want to become one with Thee, my Lord. Let me be born again and again and again, and have the joy of worshipping you’. You see, how beautiful, how beautiful. And that is what the Avatar also does, the Incarnation also does, that although he has the freedom of sitting on the fence, to merge away and become the impulse, or remain separate; yet having the impulse and the realisation of the impulse within him to work as the eternal wanderer, for a brief moment on this little planet earth, the next moment on another planet. And like that, he travels on, and travels on, through all the universes, wherever he is required, the master physician is always there. You don't even need to phone him. (Laughter). So the Jivanmukta is the living free. He has found freedom in bondage, and bondage in freedom. Freedom in bondage, and bondage in freedom. Nothing can affect him, and his life is that of bliss. And then, when he sheds this body, which he can do at will, he can merge away in that fourth state, the state beyond all states. Even when we use the word 'pure consciousness', we are limiting it by qualifying consciousness in a sense of purity. Because once you think of pure consciousness, immediately impure consciousness must co-exist with it. So the Unity state of consciousness - if we can use those terms for the limitations and lack of language - for in that state then you are the impulse; you have gone beyond the personal God and have become the Impersonal God. So the Jivanmukta or the liberated man has become one with the Personal God, and has the freedom of the personalised God, unbound, unchained, unfettered by any negativity or positivity. He is beyond that. That is the Jivanmukta. But to reach that stage of liberation, how many can reach it? Out of every hundred million that try, perhaps one or two. Therefore one day, was it at The Hayes? - I said who wants self-realisation? Don't worry about it. It will come on its own, it will come. Let us try and better our lives, and live it in such a way where there is an automatic betterment and the reward would be there, without searching for it. We have time for one more questio n. Questioner. Guruji, you said when you were talking about your life, that you were consumed by an overwhelming fire within, that pushed you on and on and on. Well what do you do when you are consumed by an overwhelming fire within pushing you on and on? It's very difficult to leave that aside and live life, because it overwhelms you and you're reaching for that above all else. Gururaj. If you are consumed by that overwhelming fire that rages within you, what do you do? That is the question? You burn yourself up in the fire. Yes. Be consumed by the fire, for that is the aim of the fire raging, to be consumed by

10. UK 78- 44 that fire. The fire does not rage within you for any objective finding. The fire rages within you for a subjective finding. And as your mind approaches nearer to the fire within, the whole mind burns away the dross, the dirt burns away in that very fire. When we say the yearning is great, the fire rages, this too is poetic expression if you wish to call it - poetic expression. The fire that rages within you, is a fire that is self-existent. It is not a conditioning, it is not a conditioning. There is a difference between that raging fire and desire. Desire is created by circumstances around you. You are influenced by outward and inward conditionings to create the yearning. But if there is a fire inborn, if you are born with the fire, it has its own existence for itself, and all you can do is to be consumed by your own fire, and then you become the fire. Like the analogy we use always, that in this air-conditioned room you know in the next room, there's a fire burning, and you believe the fire is warm. So you leave the room and go nearer, and you feel the heat of the fire. Then the belief becomes faith because you have experienced something. But to know what fire really is, is to jump into the fire and become the fire. So that is the fire that rages and burns. That is the fire that one is born with. That is the fire which is the light; the light finding itself, discovering itself, without any outward means, without any outward means, without any outward assistance; for the fire knows itself to be the fire. And that does not come from knowledge, but inner, inborn wisdom, inner, inborn wisdom. So there are these various differences. As David has asked, a person reaching self- realisation or the person being self-realised, and shedding the light. There is the difference. I wish I could be like that. Perhaps one day (Laughter)..... Questioner. But how do you jump into the fire? Gururaj. (General laughing) You jump nowhere, you jump nowhere. The more you try to jump into the fire, the more separate you will feel from the fire. It is an all-consuming self-consuming process that defies all intellectualising. It defies, the mind boggles. Just imagine this now - sounds like a riddle, that the fire jumped into itself. How can the fire jump into itself? How can the fire jump into fire? It's like the - how do you pronounce it, it sounds like a koan, Zen koan, doesn't it, and the answer just flashes. The answer does not flash from the mind, but the answer flashes from within itself. So no why's remain, no how's remain, no wherefores remain, no whens remain, none of these things. Because these are all from the mind, - why, wherefore, how, when? Questioner. When the time is right, you're saying it can't happen, we can't watch it, it can't happen until we're ready for it? Gururaj. The only thing we are pushing is the mind, clarifying the mind; bringing the mind to its ultimate clarity; the rest happens on its own. Therefore we say you can't attain God; God attains you. It means His Grace, His Grace descends.

11. UK 78- 44 Questioner. If you clarify your mind, doesn't that mean you create a separation? Gururaj. Oh, yes, oh yes. It is from separation that one reaches unity. You've got to have separation. Voice. .............. (Inaudible comment). Gururaj. No you don't lose the mind to go into an asylum. It's not losing the mind. As we explained in one of the tacks, it's not annihilating the ego, the ego is the mind. It is not annihilating or sublimating, it is the entire expansion. Like rubber, when you stretch it, it becomes clear, you see through; and the light shines through it, where the entirely refined ego becomes one with the light and the ego is not seen any more. It then disintegrates into its original elements, and not before. When the window is very clean and a bright light is shone, you don't see the glass. That's how it works. Good. Fine. Thanks. Two minutes past one and twenty-five seconds. END

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