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1. U S 80 - 32 GURURAJ: What shall we speak about tonight? Questions. VIDYA: What is the love relationship between the guru and the chela? The chela seems to melt and sometimes loose the self in the guru. Although similar and very intimate, it seems to be a differen t dimension than that of man woman, or husband wife relationship. How is this unique relationship manifest and developed? What can the chela do to be receptive and foster its development? What was the nature of your love for your guru, and how did it pr ogress and unfold for you? GURURAJ: Finished? The relationship between a guru and a chela is a love affair; a love affair not in the normal sense of man and woman. It is even a greater love affair. Between a man and woman there are very few on this ea rth that could really love each other as much. For the love between man and woman is caused mostly by need. At first it starts with some attraction, and then as needs develop, the attraction becomes more and more cemented. But in this cementing in this l ove between man and woman, a dependence arises, where one is dependent upon the other, for any particular purpose, physically, economically, emotionally. But then true love between man and woman only starts developing when they go beyond dependence and be come interdependent. But that is not all, that is not where the cycle ends. There the interdependence has also to be transcended and we come back to independence again. But this independence is of a totally different nature. When man really realizes th e totality of the woman, and the woman realizes the totality of the man, then, although they coexist, coexist heart to heart, and yet they are independent. That is the ideal relationship between husband and wife, man and woman. But now the love affair t hat takes place between a guru and a chela is of a totally different nature. It knows not of the body, it knows not of the mind, but it is a heart speaking to another heart, seeking not communication but a communion; and the guru does everything in his po wer to bring about this communion. For what is being communed there? What is the nature of that communion? The nature of the communion is none else but Divinity. For the heart of man is Divine or Divinity itself, and the heart of the chela is Divinity itself. But before this recognition takes place in the relationship, they remain individual divinities. So, the job that is to be done is where the two individualized divinities, so to say, become merged into each other. Then there is no guru, there's no chela, and only love exists. That is the ideal. Now, how is this to be achieved? What is a guru? The guru a true Guru is like a father, he's like a friend. He's like a child; he's like a brother, a sister. And yet, above that ordinary worldly relationship, a true guru is the embodiment of all that is pure, all that is divine, for the difference between the chela and the guru is very simple. The difference is this, that the guru is just as ordinary as the chela. He partakes of food and drink, and this, that, he has his biological needs, and all

2. U S 80 - 32 that. But the difference is this, that the chela is on the path to realization of the Divinity, while the guru has already reached Divinity. So he is a guide; he knows the way, for when the chela falte rs and takes the wrong turning, the guru says, "Turn back, this is not the road, that road will take you where you have to be." That is the duty of the guru. Now, what is the duty of the chela? You can have the strongest seed, the most powerful seed, but if planted in barren ground, then the seed won't grow. So a great readiness is required in the chela. If the field is fertile, the seed will gr ow, it will sprout. That is the relationship. Now, how is this field made fertile for the seed to grow? The guru has the key, he has the answer, and that answer is intense love for the chela. And that very intensity plows the field of the heart. That very strong love of the guru plows the field, removes the weeds one by one, tenderly, graciously, and with grea t love. And yet you do find that some fields are very rocky and just cannot be plowed. It requires an earthquake to get the rocks away. That happens in time. Perhaps not in this lifetime, perhaps in another lifetime, but it is bound to happen. For with out the opening of the heart, without the opening up of the heart, you could never be on the path of spiritual realization, for that is the way, that is the life. Not to live with mind and body, but to live in the realms, in the kingdom of the heart. Tha t is the way, that is the life, and that is the truth. So as the relationship grows, there are many methods of teaching. Sometimes you have to be angry, but yet the anger is a surface anger. The anger is a surface anger and not a deep anger. Underlying the anger is deep love for the chela. You spank a child, it hurts you more than it hurts the child. But it has to be done. In this modern world the worst disease people suffer of is guilt. How to rid people of guilt. How to be an example for people t o rid themselves of this guilt. Sometimes the true guru that loves his chelas goes through many things. Goes through certain acts which the human mind cannot understand, because they don't have the depth. They could not recognize the motivation. And he would do things that will rid the true chela of guilt. So my guru does that, fine, and we know that he's a spiritual giant, and I hav e made that error. The one was by purpose, the chela, by ignorance. The guru acts with knowledge and wisdom to teach the ignorant chela and bring him to that wisdom of ridding himself or herself of guilt. Now, when that big weed of guilt is removed and the chela feels that I too am Divine.... First the cognition takes place with the mind, and then slowly it sinks down to t he heart in the form of realization. And that is where the progress of the chela begins. There a response is created in the heart of the chela and the heart starts palpitating. Now for this there ar e many qualities that have to be mutual. Firstly the q uality of acceptance. The guru accepts the chela, never mind who it is. It could be a thief, rapist, murderer, whatever. For the guru doesn't see the outward form, it is not necessary. What do outward forms matter? What does the body matter? It is so transient. What does the mind matter? It is just as transient. Here today, gone tomorrow. But the guru sees the eternal spirit within the chela. And the only way to recognize the

3. U S 80 - 32 eternal spirit within the chela is where the guru has recognized the ete rnal spirit within himself. And then only can that recognition begin. And that is why gurus are required. Some people might think, "I can reach Divinity direct." That is a fallacy. It is not true. It cannot be done. Even Christ has said in the Bible that "No one reaches the Father but through me." And Christ was one of the greatest gurus that ever lived. And so did Krishna say the same thing in the Gita. So you have gurus and gurus as you would have a primary school teacher, a high school teacher, or a university teacher. So there are various grades of gurus. And you will only attract a guru according to your level. According to your level you will attract that kind of guru to you, and that kind of guru will attract you in return. So when you pass the primary stage of school, there is nothing wrong in taking the lessons from a teacher of high school level. There is nothing wrong from progressing from there to take the teachings of the teacher of university level. But if you are fortunate enough to find the teacher of university level that knows all the workings of the primary and high school stages, then he would be qualified enough to start you where you are. For he has all the qualifications of the primary and the high school levels. And blesse d are those that could find such a teacher. For immediately, immediately when this recognition takes place, the first thing that will arise in the heart of the chela is doubt. And that is very good. Very good to have doubt because that will activate yo ur mind. Most minds are sleeping. They think that they think and they are really not thinking. But doubt is such an awakener that it could make the mind look at itself. And when man learns to look at the mind with the mind, of course, then those doubts that are created on the conscious level will start dissipating themselves. So in order to develop trust you got to have doubt. Because where does trust come from? Trust stems from doubt. If I find someone for the first time totally trusting, I will purp osely create doubt in that person's mind. Yes, because that trust might be from hearsay and not from realization. True trust and faith can only come about when you go through the fire of doubt. Good. For then you water, you fertilize the mind. So doubt s are necessary. And the greater the doubter, the greater the faith will develop. You see how simple it is. And everyone perhaps if not in this lifetime, or in previous lifetimes, have gone through this process of doubt. Because of the experiences so m ixed up in the mind of man, all those samskaras and all the opposing forces, the polarities, the law of opposites that exist in man, has to be resolved in some way or the other. So doubt and faith are opposites, and you can never find the other end of the stick without that same stick having the left end to find the right end. So you start with doubt. And slowly as the love affair grows between chela and guru, those doubts vanish on their own. Now, this is very important in preparation of chelahood, very very important. For faith does not descend from somewhere else. I've made quite a few tapes on the guru chela relationship, and I would

4. U S 80 - 32 like you to listen to them. Today I'm speaking of it from a totally different angle. Other times I've spoken it fro m other angles. So you start with doubting. What are you really doubting? The teacher starts teaching you that. Start first doubting me. Start doubting me. And slowly I will teach you that you are not really doubting me, but you are doubting yourself. Ah! Second step. Now, when you come to the realization that these doubts that I had about my teacher are actually my own mental projections, although the teacher played a great part in creating those doubts, that is how he teaches. You use one thorn to take out another thorn. And then slowly you start realizing that these doubts that I have... are they really my mental projections? Am I so developed enough to be able to judge someone that commands such great spiritual force? Am I really capable of j udging, or am I projecting my own thoughts, judgment of my self onto the external guru? And then you start slowly realizing that ahh, these are the mechanisms of my own mind. I am involved in the law of opposites. Therefore these doubts come about. I a m on the seesaw of life, and the guru is sitting still. Before you used to think that the guru is on the seesaw and I am sitting still. [Laughter] I am so secure in my habit patterns, thinking patterns, that I am sitting still and the guru is being tosse d around on the seesaw. Then you start realizing, no that old boy, he is still, it is me. That is when progress begins. And as you rock about on the seesaw up and down, slowly and with love, the guru brings you to the center, where the seesaw does not g o up and down any more. So when you reach your center, you have reached the center of the guru. And that is the culmination of the love affair. Then the affair is gone, only love remains. The affair was in the teaching of how to bring this about. So t herefore, teachers are necessary. When a child is sent to school the teacher has to teach the child the ABC's and D's, and when the child has learned the alphabet and word construction then the child can read on his own. Then the teacher is not necessary . Once you have climbed up the ladder to reach the roof, then you can throw the ladder away. But there is one danger in throwing the ladder away: what if I have to get down soon. Ahh! So that love relationship is never broken. Perhaps at that stage of r ealization it may not be needed, for now your inner guru has awakened. But still after the inner guru being awakened, we still need a hand to climb down. And that relationship becomes so firm that it would be nothing for the guru to give his life for the chela or the chela to give his life for the guru. Because who is giving what and who is receiving what? It is a oneness. And when you recognize that oneness with the guru, you have automatically and spontaneously recognized the oneness with God. For a true guru is a representative in human form of that eternal spirit. And what right has he to become a representative? Because he has become one with the universal spirit. Guru Brahman, Guru Vishnur, Guru Devo Maheshvarah. In him resides creation, preser vation and dissolution, which resides in you too, but unrecognized. From the Gita I was telling Sujay we were

5. U S 80 - 32 discussing, Krishna tells Arjuna that you and I have lived many lives before. The only difference is that I know them and you are ignorant of th em. And my job is to teach you to know them too. That is what the guru does. A true guru can very easily be recognized if you have eyes to see him. You'd find him half mad, firstly. Not mad in the ordinary sense of the word Divine madness, for his mind, although half of it he has to use to live in this world, the othe r half is always floating there with the Divine. And this is how he gains this great spiritual force of Divinity. The true guru is easy to recognize by his humbleness, his humility, his very ordinariness. For a guru to teach a chela properly he has to become lik e the chela: with a child, he's a child; with a loafer boy he'll act like a loafer; with a university professor, he'll speak like a university professor. Because he has gone through all those stages. And he knows like the story I told you the other day o f the enlightened man going to jail by doing little petty crimes, like stealing a sweet, first making sure that a policeman is nearby; or breaking a window with a stone, first making sure there is a policeman around to arrest him. So when his people asked him, those that are close asked him, "Why do you do things, Guruji, you've been to jail 20 times." He says, "Those people in jail need me more. Who is going to teach them? Am I really a thief, taking that little sweet? But I want to be there, otherwis e they won't admit me in there. They won't let me in." So the actions of these great masters could just not be understood by the mind, could not be understood by the mind. Fine. Now, the guru gives some understanding: in various talks, discourses and th ings, shows you the other aspects of a given object, shows you the whole picture. But more than that, what he tries to do is to make you think in the right way. He makes you think in a positive way, if you like to use that word. So a bit of the battle h as been won, a bit of the bottle has been won. That is not the end. Thinking in the right way is not enough. After the guru starts you thinking in the right way, he start s on your emotions. He'll take you through the whole realm of emotions. He'll make you hate him intensely. Yes. He can do that where it is necessary. Fine. Because he knows that tomorrow, because of this, the chela himself will learn to love. It is the same thing, the same energy. The pendulum, if it swings too far this way, it wil l swing the other way just as far. The whole idea is to create that momentum. For people sleep; the guru is the awakener. They are in darkness; they are to be brought to light. And that is what the word means, guru: "Gu," darkness; "Ru," light. One wh o brings a person to light from darkness. [Sanskrit], lead me from darkness to light. Those are the things the guru does, until the chela realizes that there is no separation. The guru is me and I am the guru. No separation at all. And to reach that en d, to reach that goal, so many things the guru has to go through. He has to be hard, he has to be soft, he has to be gentle, he has to be kind, he has to be compassionate, and he has to be ruthless at times. Now, he's beyond all these opposites, yet he br ings himself down to the level of the chela to establish this communion. At first by communication and then by communion, and that communion leads itself to higher and higher,

6. U S 80 - 32 subtler and subtler, finer and finer levels. Blessed was I that I found my gur u. You must listen to the tape that I made in England of my relationship with Swami Pavitranandaji. For eight months in the ashram he would not even look at me. Not a word. He would shout at me, "Why are those papers lying there? Pick them up, pick th em up. Come on, come on." We used to wake up at 4:00 in the morning. One morning I was five minutes late. So he came around with a cane, bang, bang, bang. Wake up, wake up, wake up. I say, "What kind of a guru is this? I overslept by five minutes an d he gives me a couple of strokes on the part that hurts most. What is this all about, I don't understand it." Ahh, but in retrospect I started understanding it, what it was all about: how he tried to create discipline in me. How he tried to break down my arrogance. I was very arrogant, very proud. How he tried to break down that shell, that ego. Because that ego is like an egg. You've got to break the shell for the chicken to pop out, the chicken of life. Spirituality. Now that spirit within is a lways... when it is ready, it tries to hit up against the shell to break it to come out. It's a hard time, but if the guru is around and just gives it a little crack, it makes it easy. At the right time. You see how beautiful this love affair develops, stage by stage there is a development. He makes you laugh, he makes you cry, all for a purpose, all for a purpose. And the purpose is to bring the chela to the realization that he is Divine. Until then there is no stopping. Once the bond is formed ther e is no stopping at all. I've said before that physical links might be broken, mental links might be broken, but the spiritual link is never broken. It is picked up life after life if it cannot be completed in this life. Ther e is always another life. The same threads are picked up. Once a teacher, always a teacher. And that teacher whose dharma is to teach, a teacher that level will come again and again and again in so many different forms. And even if the true teacher's body drops or is discarded, he's still there with you in so many forms and ways still teaching you. Oh, yes. You are in some mental turmoil and you will just pick up a book, perhaps, and you will just read a sentence and will say, "Aha, here is the answer." Or you just might meet a bagg er on the road who will say a word or two and you'll find an answer so you are progressing. The guru is not gone, although he has dropped his body. He is still with you if that bond is firmly established. He's still with you showing you the way through so many other means. And even if your guru is alive, he does not need to be with you all the time to hold your hand and lead. There are other ways, many other ways, for the eternal spirit is all pervading. And we know how many times we have a problem an d we take our mind to that shakti and somehow or other the problem gets resolved. A solution is found. It happens every day. And if a solution is not found, remember that you have not made yourself receptive enough for the solution. For the solution to any problem is always there around the corner. [END SIDE ONE] So that is the relationship between guru and chela. Some of these so called gurus talk of surrender. You surrender yourself to me first. How wrong, how wrong. What those gurus actually mea n is surrender your wallets. Oh, in the name of God, in the name of religion the things that happen in this world! It is so hurting, it is shameful. That surrender is the culmination in the love affair and not the start. For w hen

7. U S 80 - 32 that love really ripens , there is automatic surrender. You don't surrender with the mind; and it is not only the chela that surrenders to the guru, but the guru surrenders to the chela too. It's a two way street. For love itself is surrender. Ahh! In the beginning, obedience is required. The guru says meditate twice a day and it is your duty to do it. If you don't, that is your business, the guru doesn't tie you down. Come or go, it's up to you. The door is open always, to walk in or out. No one stops you. But when the bond grows deeper and deeper... not a facade, not a show, we are talking of the genuine article, not a facade or a show where people would stand up on public platforms and show such great devotion to their guru and so much love. Lip service. For if it wa s really true, then the opposite of that devotion or love could never happen. It could never happen. Do you see. So here truth is required. If you can't be truthful to others, at least be truthful to yourself. Be yourself. By being yourself, you are automatically truthful to yourself. So surrender is the culmination. There is friendship; there is sharing; then comes devotion. And it's not only the chela that is to be devoted to the guru, the guru is just as much devoted to the chela because of the friendship that is formed. He's a friend, the guru is a friend. And then devotion comes, and when that devotion develops more and more, then surrender automatically comes. And what is the nature of that surrender? The nature of that surrender is from the heart. The heart surrenders. The guru is not interested in what you have or what you don't have or your background, or what have you done. He's not interested in that. He's interested in your spirit, in your spirit. For he knows that the only reas o n why you are suffering is because you regard your spirit to be separate from everything else, while in reality, it is but one spirit that pervades the entire universe and you are just like little bubbles on the pond. On the pond little bubbles, same wate r, same water, same same water. And the air in the bubbles are your samskaras which is to be burst. So like a boil the guru pierces it and lets all the dirt and puss out. And it could be painful at times, so the guru tries to cultivate in you the attitu de to view it in the right way: right thinking. That without this boil being pierced it won't get better. The poison has to be let out. So you don't think of the hurt, you don't think of the piercing that hurts a bit, you think of the poison being out. You say, "Ahh, what a relief that the poison is out." That's how you think positively, that's how you think in the right direction, that's how you think progressively. So, these are the things the true teacher teaches, and books can't teach this. Books can't teach this. They might tell you of it in printed word, but the human touch, the human impulse that is imparted, that does the trick. Not the book. Because if books can take you to self realization, then what are teachers necessary for? Hm? Now, a s this relationship develops, and it takes time to develop, but at first there is a spark, an interchange, a momentary flash that occurs between guru and chela. Now this very little spark has to be fanned, and all the meditations and spiritual practices a nd the understandings given is fanning that spark into a huge raging spiritual fire in which all the samskaras, all the karmas are consumed, burned away, and the purity of the fire is left. There it ends, where the guru and the chela is

8. U S 80 - 32 but one. No diffe rence whatsoever. For spirit has merged into spirit, and the body, when it is dropped, just dissipates itself and goes back to its original elements as well as the mind which is also made of matter, as we discussed the other day. So one has to have a fo cal point, for the Divinity we speak of is abstract. We've got to have a focal point; but the focal point must be such the focal point, the guru, must be such that he has no other interest in you except your development, your unfoldment. That is all the interest he has. He has to use many means and ways of doing things for your sake. And that was the suffering of Christ. For the sake of his disciples he went through all those sufferings. He was the most despised man in the world. The Sanhedrins despi sed him, the Sadducees, the Pharisees, the Zealots, even his own very closest left him in the time of trouble. As Doug was telling me once, that out of his 12 apostles, one denied him, one betrayed him, and ten ran away. You'd find that. It was only afte rwards when they got the full impact that they really started his teachings in proper earnest, really, really with great force. And his life was such that he was away from his mother and his brothers and his sister. A man like that, a great guru, one of the greatest gurus in the world never had a place to lay his head upon. These things did not matter. He was interested in the welfare of his disciples. He was interested in bringing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth: not bringing, awakening, but we are th ose words. For what is up there is down here. It is the recognition, to re cognize what it really is that Heaven is here and that is what the guru doe s. To make you see, hear, feel, realize that the Kingdom of Heaven is here, here and now, and nowhere e lse for you. That is the role of the guru. And what does the chela do? The chela must be willing to learn. The chela must be willing to obey. If the guru says you climb up the steep hill, it is your duty to do it without questions. That comes when dou bt ceases and faith begins. When there is faith you know that what the teacher has told me is right, he knows what he is doing. I might not know it yet. He knows, he has gone up that path. He knows. In ordinary school you are given a formula in mathem atics by the teacher. Now, how do you know that the formula is right for that problem? You take his word. You go to a doctor and he gives you a bottle of medicine. You take the medicine, it could be poison, but no, you have faith. He is a doctor and h e has given me this medicine and I must take it. Faith. Everything in this world is based on trust and faith. The greatest business deals are done at the luncheon table. Contracts are only signed afterwards, a week later when the typist has typed them. On faith, on trust. Everything. You trust your husband, you trust your wife. If there is no trust and faith, there cannot b e happiness. So these are the qualities that the chela has to develop. The quality of faith in his guru; and the guru has the f aith all the time that ok, this is an errant child, but he'll come right. He he has that faith. That faith is inborn in him . He has cultivated it many lifetimes ago. He knows the child is a bit naughty, ok, it's alright, so let them be naughty, let the m

9. U S 80 - 32 jump around a bit, it's good exercise. And they'll settle down. So trust and faith brings about this communion, brings about as its culmination this surrender to each other which is love, and love is God. You see. Huh? I have some chelas in this ver y room that would be prepared to give their lives for me this moment. Yes. There are some of them. And I likewise would do the same. Look at that beautiful example when Christ washed the feet of his disciples. What does it mean? That means that I am no greater than you. You are the same, you are one with me. If you serve me, I serve you too, a two way street. Do you see. And that is the bond, for once that bond is strengthened between guru and chela, then you are really bonded to God. It's so sim ple, really, so simple. Just developing it, that's all. Sometimes people go off the road, and they bump their heads and come back. Things like that happen. That's this world. In relativity all things are possible because if these opposites were not the re, then this world would not exist. These are things that make the world go around. But those on the path of spirituality, those on the path that want to reach Divinity have to be heroes. You've got to take a plunge. It's very easy to go into that whi ch is known, but it requires courage to leap into the unknown. But that is where the adventure is, that is where the joy is. In the unknown. Ahh! That's blissful. You go climb a mountain, and if you take the usual route there's no fun. When we used to do mountaineering, many years ago when I was much younger, we would always try to discover a new route to climb up Table Mountain. Yes. Because it was fun and adventurous. So life is an adventure. The search for God is an adventure. From the little k nown to the vast unknown and to become one with that. Then you really know. You see. Oh, I can go on and on with this. But I believe we have a concert organized tonight, huh? Beautiful. ****END****

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