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United States 83-45

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1. U S 83 - 45 RELATIONSHIPS ROOPA: There are a few questions this morning, and they all have to do with rel ationships. The basic idea is: What are the limitations we impose upon ourselves? GURURAJ: In relationships? ROOPA: And there are... I don't know if you want the works. GURURAJ: Hmm. Let's have the works. ROOPA: OK. Here's the works. Settle down. It seems we need relationships to come to know ourselves and the essence of reality, but in relationships... They seem to be the major stumbling blocks and the source of samskaras in which we get lost. Also, it seems that whenever you have a strong attraction, there is a strong force toward separation. Do the two ultimately have to go together? And a third way that this question seems to be coming up is with this question: Is the doubleness of a spiritually a ttuned relationship oneness or duality? GURURAJ: Beautiful. In this world as the old saying goes "no man is an island unto himself." So there would have to be relationships, but what do we mean by relationships and by what means are the relationships fo rmed? Are they formed by an attraction or by repulsion. You can have a relationship with a person and be totally repulsed by that person. And yet the very thought of that person in repulsiveness is a relationship because that person is in your mind. Yo u are related to the person in thought. And then of course attraction does apply a certain amount of respect, of love, or admiration that would form attraction. Now attraction cannot exist without repulsion. But these two qualities are not opposites. Th ey are part of the same thing, two sides of the same coin as, for example, in an electrical wire you have the positive and the negative. Here the negative does not mean something opposing the positive, but both are required to form a circuit so that the l ight could burn. So in every attraction the element of repulsion is there, for if attraction and repulsion if we regard them to be of relative value then they would function in the law of opposites. Wherever as I've said many times there is pleasure, there is pain. Wherever there is sun, there is rain. Wherever there is attraction, there is repulsion. Fine.

2. U S 83 - 45 Now you can start off with any object in mind from the standpoint of repulsion, and that could be turned into attraction. You might have expe rienced this in your own lives where you did not like a person and slowly knowing the person you grew to liking the person. Sometimes you find a person that you are immediately attracted to and then slowly that attraction will fade away. A husband and wi fe get attracted to each other and they get married. You find many instances where they just grow cold to each other. Yet in the beginning there was that fervor and warmth, and now they've gone cold. So if repulsion was not in built in the quality of attr action, then you would not get cold. So what would be the ideal relationship? The ideal relationship would be to stand on the thin dividing line between the two and recognizing them both so there is neither an intense attraction. So if there is no intens e attraction, then there will not be intense repulsion. But by standing on the dividing line and looking at both sides, you will find yourself in a differ ent area altogether. Like a pendulum, the harder and further it swings to the left, the further woul d it swing to the right. And then it comes to a standstill after all the swinging. And when it comes to a standstill, the clock stops. But we don't want the clock of relationships to stop. Hmm? Now, there is a scientific theory that when the pendulum s ways to the left, there is a pause. And when it sways to the extreme right, there is that pause, that indefinable quality that knows of no time and space. Now that is the area a person has to find to know true relationships. Otherwise you are just playi ng around. You are swinging to the left and the right and the left and the right. And the time comes when the spring that has been wound in the clock dissipates itself, the energy is gone. But now when you reach either to the left or to the right and re ach that area, that momentary stop, that is where everything is found. The totality of life is found which means you are going beyond the swinging of the pendulum and even beyond the standing still of the pendulum. Now what is that place at either end of the pendulum? How does one reach there? Hmm? One reaches there by the attitude of mind that I am aloof from the pendulum, aloof in the sense that I am not the pendulum, but I am the momentum! So when you are merged into momentum then neither would you know attraction and neither repulsion. You know only of the momentum because both attraction and repulsion require that energy which we call momentum. Here you refine the qualities of attraction and you refine the qualities of repulsion to its basic valu e which is momentum. In other words, it is energy. Now when that energy is realized, that I am neither this nor that, but the energy itself, I will find that the energy that is me is the same energy that is you. So in spite of the outer attraction we h ave... I would not ever feel disappointed if something you do that becomes unattractive or repulsive to me because I have centered myself in the energy, and the attraction and repulsion moves away to the periphery. So here I am centered in the energy and the qualities which that energy produces or manifests rather is on the periphery.

3. U S 83 - 45 Now peripheries can be changed. You can put a compass at the center point. You can put a compass at the center point and you can squeeze that compass closer and it will make a smaller circle. You pull it out and it will make a wider circle and a still wider circle. So this means that attraction or repulsion can be changed, that they can be brought closer or they can be shifted far away. The consciousness that we require is that of the center. As long as the axle in not bent in the center, the wheel will run smoothly. So what we require is a centering of ourselves in ourselves. And then only secondarily do we take notice of the periphery. But we are so much immersed i n the periphery that we find attractions and repulsions all the time. We find faults in something which is so beautiful which we can call attraction. Because operating from the periphery things are forever changing for us. Hmm? And we become ignorant or we ignore the stableness that is us. Say I am attracted to a woman. Now, attraction is from the mind level. The entire depth or the width or the measurement of attraction is just on the mind level. So with my mind I find a woman to be attractive. She has a beautiful face. She has lovely ways, mannerisms. And things are also beautiful there. But as I start living with her, for example, and not always see her face well made up, see her first thing in the morning, then I say, "Oh, she is not as pretty as I thought she is." Do you see? The same thing applies to a man. By the way, when I say "man" it includes women, and when I say "woman" it includes a man. You know, that is legal terminology. When a lawyer draws up an agreement, you know, he qualifie s in the beginning by saying that where man is referred to it also implies women and where woman is referred to it also implies man. Hmm? I believe someone said to someone yesterday, "We just use man, man, man. Why don't we use woman?!" It means both. Sometimes you want that attraction. Good. Now here there were two men living out in the woods. They became confirmed bachelors. So the one friend asked, "You know, Horace, you should be married. What happened?" So, Horace says, "You know, I met a gir l. She was a lovely blond. And I liked her. I was attracted to her. I liked her very much. So I took her home to meet my mother, but my mother did not like her very much because of the way she walked and the way she talked like a hillbilly, what have you. And she was not of the class. So I had to give her up to please my mother." "And then what happened?" "And then," he says, "I met a redhead. Very attractive girl. And I took her home to meet my mother and my mother did not like her either because she couldn't cook and she couldn't do this and that and she behaved very differently. So of course I had to chuck her." (You see how far attraction goes? Just because a mother says... Right. Fine.) "And then I met a third girl who was a brunette. A nd this brunette... You know, I looked around to find someone who was like mother, and this brunette talked like mother. She walked like mother. She cooked like mother. You could say that she was a daughter kind of thing perhaps. She was so like mothe r." "So, why didn't you marry her?" the friend says. So Horace says, "Well, I would have. My mother was quite in favor of it, but being so like my mother, my father couldn't stand the sight of her."

4. U S 83 - 45 So what is the worth of attraction when you get influen ced by others. Because it is on the mind level, you get influenced by others! Hmm? You might be attracted to a woman, or a woman is attracted to a man, and this girl might meet a friend who would tell this girl a lot of ugly stories about this man. "Yo u know, Jim did this. And you might not know it, but he did this and that and he had several other women before. And he jilted them. And you know.... So don't put your heart on him!" So your attraction to him starts fading away. Hmm? Right. It can f ade away by the creation of repulsion. But then to another girl again that very repulsion can be the basis of attraction. See the circle it works in? Attraction to repulsi on and that very repulsion forms a challenge. "Oh, so he has been around with a h undred women, has he? I'll put him in his place and keep him to me only!" And that could lead to an assumed attraction which would become a genuine attraction if the woman is strong enough. Hmm? So why do we run around in these circles? Because we are operating from the mind level only and we know that the mind is very fickle. Why are you attracted... That is on the day to day level as an example. Why are you attracted to the concept of God? Why? Because of the need in you. You have been told throu gh your parents and schools and churches that God the Father helps. So you need help so there is an attraction to the concept, to the concept of God. And yet God could not be a reality. He is not a reality until you have realized Him. So your attractio n here now is based only on concept which is an ideal you have formulated in your mind with the help of the environment that there is an old chap up there and if you appeal to him, you can win your case. He is a good judge. That is a mental concept. No one can prove that that is true. Right. You are repulsed by the devil, and you stay away. And that too is a mental concept, for who has seen either God or the devil according to your conception. No one. So the second factor is this, that attraction or repulsion in any form of relationship whether earthly or ethereally is but based upon your concepts, upon certain ideals that you have. How many of us can evaluate things in totality? How many of us can look at a person, and evaluate that person thoroug hly? Ninety nine point nine percent of people can't. "Oh, he is a good looking man. Oh, she is a pretty girl, so she is attractive." That is the basis of your evaluation. "Oh, he's got a glib tongue; he's sweet. Or she's sweet; she speaks nice. She 's very affectionate." That is the basis. Or she is very affectionate. She is very demonstrative. She caresses your head. She puts her arms around you. Right. That makes your body feel comfortable and makes your mind feel at ease. How long is it goi ng to last? Hmm? It can not last because as we said a moment ago attraction and repulsion in any form of relationship is based only on the mind level. And the mind could never be centered. The mind is not the center of man and neither of woman. I'd bet ter mention women as well. The mind could never be the center of yourself because the center is forever still while the mind is forever changing and changing and changing.

5. U S 83 - 45 So all conclusions that we arrive at are from a changing level. So it means your c onclusions and your judgments and your evaluations can change from day to day. Attraction in human relationships can become repulsive tomorrow, and the repulsive can become attractive the next day. The basis of human relationship should be from the core of one's personality, that means from the center. And where is the center of man? We normally say in the heart and we point here to the chest. Now that is metaphorically said. That's a metaphor because your center is you your whole self. This heart here is just an organ and the center of yourself does not necessarily need to be in the chest. The center can be anywhere. But the cognition and realization of the center, that's important and not where it is placed. Hmm? Because from the very tips of your toes to the top of your head is nothing else but consciousness. And that very consciousness is your center. That very consciousness is your center, but when consciousness, pure consciousness, becomes clouded by the workings of the mind, we lose the sens e of the center. Do you see? Yesterday, I think, we were talking of love. Where is your love centered? Now? At this moment? Your love is centered in the mind. And you have very mistakenly called the mind consciousness. It is very mistaken. The mi nd is a center of recognition because the conscious mind can always draw back and look into the cubbyholes of the subconscious to compare. Hmm? I've seen a chair before, so this I recognize to be a chair. But how much is the mind conscious? Or is there something that is beyond the mind that we could call consciousness? That is the question! And there is. Mind is not consciousness. Consciousness is the absolute, the total center, the center within yourself. That is consciousness, while the mind is a r eflection of consciousness. So we habitually and by our past samskaras take for granted that the mind is consciousness while it is not. It is only a reflection of consciousness and not the real thing, for the reflection c an never be real. All the people on the cinema screen seem so real, especially in 3 D and cinemascope, all kinds of scopes. But what real scope has it got? Very limited scope because it is a reflection. But you sit in the cinema and you get so involved with the happenings on the screen that if it's a sad picture you would find that hankies are being pulled out. You would hear sniffles. Yes. Well, nowadays they have banned smoking in cinemas, but if you go to a cinema and you can see how suggestive the mind is that in the audience, s omeone in front lights a cigarette. Look around you and you will find fifty cigarettes are being lit. Yet that person might not feel like lighting a cigarette. Yes. I've experimented with this. I u sed to be in show business. You see one person lighti ng a cigarette and you will find fifty people around would be lighting up a cigarette. So in such a small thing you do things that you don't feel like doing. You get influenced by what is happening on the screen. Look at the excitement! The hero is on his horse on his way to rescue the damsel in distress. And you get excited. "Come on! Hurry up! You know, she's going to fall down the cliff! Hurry up. Save her!" You get excited.

6. U S 83 - 45 How the mind can be influenced and how the mind can be led into doing things that you don't want to do. You have not felt like lighting up a cigarette but you have lit one up. And that is what everyday television does, and you don't realize it. Television is a medium firstly to entertain and secondly for entertainment yo u require relaxation. So, now and then you find the heroine or the hero lighting up a cigarette. Seven out of ten viewers that are smokers will also feel for their pack et of cigarettes and light one up. Hmm? Do you see how relationships are formed? Re lationship does not only mean the relationship of man and woman or a person and his friends or his environment or his circle. A relationship does not only mean that, but it also means how you relate to things. And how you relate to things should be somet hing totally individual from yourself and not be influenced by the circumstances, the few which I have described to you. And there are so many. So are you really living yourself? No, you are not living yourself. Your life is governed by the people arou nd you, by the circumstances around you, and by the things around you. Hmm? There is only a very small percentage of you that shows its individuality, that shows its personal identity. And a true relationship, even from a mind level, is to first cognize your personal identity and then identify it with the object and then there would be a more truer attraction or a more truer repulsion! Do you see? So it is not the attraction or the repulsion that is so important. It becomes a secondary matter. But that which you identify as yourself, that is the important factor. Now if you are totally identified on the mind and thought level, then your reaction would be accordingly so. But if you are more and more closer to the center, then your reaction to whatever happens will definitely have a different perspective. A different perspective. A person might do something, and there are five people present. Everyone will react to the circumstance very differently. A person makes a statement in the company of five other people. One will say, "Ahh, he's crazy." One might say something else. But the man that really understands, that operates from the center, will look at him very kindly and compassionately and say that he is still steeped in some ignorance. He's functioning from his level. Another will say, "Oh, chuck him out! He does not belong in our company." And the wise man will say, "Of course. Everyone belongs in our company. It's just that his level of understanding has not reached a certain stage, an d therefore he seems crazy. Let us have him as a friend and see what we can do about his view of life or perspective." You see. So to repeat again, as we through our spiritual practices reach the center of ourselves the more could we identify ourselve s with everything around us and yet remain non attached to all that which is around us. We have talked about non attachment many times. It is only where non attachment is that we don't feel hurt because we operate from the center. And the center never h urts because it does not move. The axle of the cart stands still. It is only the wheel that

7. U S 83 - 45 moves, the wheel of the mind, the whirlpools of the mind that keeps on moving. But here lies the secret that in the center of the whirlpool if you have ever bee n in a whirlpool in the center if you dive, you get sucked into that whirlpool. But as you go deeper down that even in that whirlpool you will find a point of stillness. So let the whirlpool of the mind whirl around all the time, but seeing through the mind, with the mind itself, with the higher level of the mind, you'd find that still center. It becomes very, very attractive to you, so much so that the attraction leads to total identification with the cente r. That is the greatest joy one could ever ha ve, to be totally centered without any disturbance, without any attraction and neither any repulsion. And all relationships, be it to mother, father, children, husband, beloved, is seen and known in its true value. So here, although there is a differentia tion between your beloved and your friends, your father and mother, although there is a differentiation in its expression, the center remains the same. And that center one could call love. The center remains the same only expressed in different forms beca use of different kinds of relationships. Fine. Questions? On the same topic if you like, or anything else. CHELA: Talking about that with the relationship... I don't know. The question that came up is how do you judge since your mind isn't clear? If y ou're getting involved in a relationship how do you judge it? Like when I first met my husband when we were going out together, several members of my family said, "He's not right for you. He's not right." And I went through a lot of [inaudible] ... beca use I put a lot of value on them, and it was real difficult for me to make the choice to stay with him. Where...how do you make that judgment or how do you...? GURURAJ: Do not judge. CHELA: Or.... Well? GURURAJ: What you do is this. Do not judge by wh at your mind says and do not be influenced by what your parents or relatives say. Go on your feeling. And if it does not turn out right, depending on how acute your feelings are, what acuteness it has, that will guide you. If it doesn't turn out right, s o what? Then you regard it to be an adventure. That's all. You don't allow it to hurt you. You don't judge. You go by your feelings. This one girl went to the doctor and the doctor examined her. She was a very pretty girl. And the doctor examined her and says, "You have acute appendicitis." So she is quite indignant and replies, "Doctor, I've come here to be examined and not to be admired!" Acute. You see. So even that word could be understood in so many different ways. Next.

8. U S 83 - 45 CHELA: Yogananda s aid that anyone who commits himself to meditation and the life of God could achieve liberation in one lifetime. Do you agree with that? GURURAJ: That is very true. That is very true. It depends how intense your yearning is. It depends how much you p ersevere, how much you really are for it and at it. There is one person in this room who night and day the prominent thought in this person's mind in nothing else but divinity. And the person... I'm sure I can see it. I can see all the sig ns. I've exa mined all his experiences as he relates them to me, and I know he's going to find that unity consciousness, that oneness in this lifetime. Yes. So if it is possible for one, it is possible for everyone else. Oh, yes. It depends how muc h we put into it. Like you can finish a table in one day or you can take a whole week about it. Depends how much harder you want to work at it. You can loaf around and finish a pack of cigarettes while watching the table. Oh yes. I'll do the planing just now and the knoc king together later. Like that. And that's what we all do. We regard divinity to be just a sideline. You know when we have a little time, OK, well then. And sometimes we forget the sideline also... [End of side one.] GURURAJ: We forget the sideline as well. So we regard Him as a sideline. We only know Him as a sideline. But if He becomes the mainline in my life and everything else becomes the sideline, then you could reach very far. For knowing God is knowing yourself. And when you know yourself, life becomes more and more happier and happier. There is no friction left. And even if some little friction comes about, you can understand the friction and know its worth. And every bit of friction is actually worthless. It passes. CHELA: [Inaudible ] GURURAJ: You could get on some way which will not lead you directly? CHELA: Yes, you get on some path that leads you a divergent way. GURURAJ: Although your desire is there? Fine. Yes. You want to reach the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco and you might take the wrong road. But eventually, you know, you ask this one and you ask that one and you ask that one. A guide. If the desi re is strong enough to reach the Golden Gate Bridge.

9. U S 83 - 45 CHELA: But in this lifetime? I was thinking you might get diverted somewhere.... GURURAJ: Not really. If you are keen enough. You get the feel. Oh, I've been guided wrong. I must ask someone else. Then you go to someone else. And that person will show you the road. Or else you go to the policeman, you know, at the police station. Is that what you call it here? The police station? Yes, where they have the map of the city. And the greatest pol iceman is the guru! He locks you up and you stay there or he says, "On your way. That's the way to the Golden Gate Bridge." Hmm? And when you meet Saint Peter there at the Golden Gate Bridge, tell him I sent you. Yes, so if you're a bit tipsy, I'll say , "You stay here, boy. Here's a nice comfortable cell for you. And wait awhile." CHELA: I have a question which relates to something you said yesterday. I'm afraid sometimes when you ... [inaudible] I'll fall asleep. GURURAJ: You do fall asleep. Yes. CHELA: [Inaudible] You were talking of blue light... [inaudible] GURURAJ: You missed out on it, yes? What was the technique? CHELA: [Inaudible] [Asking about technique and blue light.] GURURAJ: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes, that is to totally localize your t houghts. That if you can totally localize your thoughts.... It's and exercise in localizing your thoughts. But if you can put your blue light on a given area... say the navel, and the nave l is very important because there is a great bundle of nerves the re and that is what people suffer most from is the nerves not being perfectly strong. And that is also one of the factors that physiologically and biologically speaking keeps one away from divinity because the nerves are blocked or they don't have the str ength. So. So, that is why... To focus your attention so that with practice you can start focusing the awareness at other trouble spots and send it directly there. A laser beam. So we practice. You know. It's all a practice. CHELA: Like at first yo u mean and then we can send it directly to ... The blue light or...?

10. U S 83 - 45 GURURAJ: Your mantra. Your mantra. Your mantra. CHELA: Every day? GURURAJ: You can do it every day. You can do it twenty times a day while walking, talking, sleeping. Even while you fall asleep, you can. CHELA: So you don't use the mantra on your navel? It's the blue light...? GURURAJ: Yes. Yes. See this was something totally different from meditation. Now don't confuse the two issues. The exercise we did yesterday was on how to develop the awareness, how to become more aware of things. And you start off by becoming aware o f every part of your body. After having gone through the entirety of your body, you want to settle down. I make you settle down here on the navel area. That's all it is. Next. CHELA: Guruji, on relationships. I was talking last night about a friend I have who is... I guess I would describe him as self destructive. He's had a hard time with life. He drinks too much and he's had a lot of problems with his marriage and he's in jail and out of jail all the time. And, uhh, he's got a lot of friends wh o have sort of gotten to the point where they've just written him off. GURURAJ: What a bad thing to do. CHELA: But they go back and forth. They'll do that for awhile... GURURAJ: To shock him a bit? CHELA: And... And he'll do things to really hurt the m. Like he broke into our house and stole some things. You know. He does things that are really hard to be patient about. GURURAJ: Well, I can really cure him. But not by giving you an answer in a nutshell. I must have about a dozen sessions with him to put his mind right.

11. U S 83 - 45 CHELA: But this person to relate to... It's so hard to try and still continue to be loving and ... GURURAJ: You have to be loving, but sometimes it's kind to be cruel without really not loving. CHELA 2: [Different person] Fol lowing on that, in a case like that where someone is trying to do you or your family constant harm and we know that we are supposed to be loving and helping, are you spiritually bound in a case like that, even to your own detriment, to stay related to a pe rson like that. Forgive and forget.... GURURAJ: No. Of course, the ideal is to forgive and forget. That is the ideal, but that requires great spiritual strength o n our part. That it is easy to love a friend but to love an enemy. That requires great st rength. But people in that stage it is rather best to avoid. CHELA 2: [Inaudible] ...so get away. GURURAJ: Get away. CHELA 1: Like if this person... Like if he says that he's going to try to get it together now, and if his friends are right there to s upport him, but then he does it again. GURURAJ: Well, give him an ultimatum. Right. If he's going to do this or this, fine. This is your last chance, boy. And next time, it's finished. What else can you do? And sometimes leaving these people alone and let them knock their heads, hmm, that might help them more than all the sympathy and kindness which you do as a duty and because of love. Right? Yes. There's no logic to it really. There's no logic. One must go according to the merits of the person; but sometimes.... I, f or example, with children I don't mind using the strap. I know it will hurt me more than the child, but if it is necessary, it is necessary. As you having been doing this, tonight you are going to bed without supper. Finish! Then the child realizes. Then you also exp lain the child why. Don't let him feel cruel. Give him some understanding why you are doing this. But if you are going pampering the child, he'll keep on doing more. The child is playing with a sharp knife and you take the knife away from the child, th e child is going to cry. But you know that the child is going to hurt himself with the knife. So you

12. U S 83 - 45 take it away, grab it away, even if the child cries. And then you explain why you're taking it away. So many times you have to do things that has a lot of, some things that has no logic. Like, for example, how's this for logic. The wife asks the husband to lend her twenty dollars. So she says, "Don't give me the twenty now. Just give me a ten." So the next day when they were chatting she says to him , "You owe me ten dollars and I owe you ten dollars. So we are square." This man was reading the morning paper and he found the announcement of his own death. Hmm? John Jackson. He says, "Oh, my God. They're announcing me to be dead and I'm alive!" So he phones his friend, Jones, and says, "Did you see this morning's paper? The announcement of my death?" He says, "Yes, I read it, but by the way where are you speaking from?" [laughter] You know the old saying "Two can live as cheaply as one?" You k now the daughter was telling the parents, you know that two can live as cheaply as one. So the father replies, "Yes. That is true that two can live as cheaply as one. We do that and we live just as cheaply as you do alone." CHELA A: Guruji, if there is no death and all there is is life, what is there to fear? GURURAJ: Nothing! No thing to fear. Nothing. CHELA B: [Different person] My fear is the physical pain of dying. GURURAJ: There is no pain at all. Who told you that? Were they dead? CHELA B : It's the dying. They really suffer. GURURAJ: They don't really suffer because at the moment of death they become unconscious. CHELA B: Oh, yes, but I mean in the process, maybe six months before.... GURURAJ: But that is the illness. That is not deat h. They suffer the illness, but they don't suffer death. They suffer the illness which they have brought upon themselves or through hereditary ways according to their past karmas or their own actions in life they bring about these illnesses to them. Tha t's all. But death is not suffering. The illness is.

13. U S 83 - 45 And it's only while you are conscious that you even feel the effects of illness. If you have severe pain, the doctor gives you an anesthetic, you don't feel the pain. So where is the pain then? Hmm? Is the pain there in the bones and the body, or is the pain in the mind? Because anesthetic will work directly in your nervous system, and all your nerves are connected to the fine cells in your brain. Yet, we can just see how that exists. I've heard of people that had an amputated arm or a leg. They still feel the pain where the arm or the leg was. So where is the pain? The pain is the impression that is still there in the mind and which is just exhibiting itself. CHELA: What do you feel about eu thanasia? GURURAJ: There again. You could never make a general rule on euthanasia. If a person has become a total vegetable and is totally useless unto himself and others, it is justified because we are not depriving him of his karma. Whatever karma he has left l et him work it out in another lifetime, perhaps, and in better circumstances. Because in any case, if you are formed into a vegetable you are working out nothing. The mind is not working. That has been quite a question. But on the excuse of euthanasia some of the medical friends of mine have been putting... and they are very close friends. And I have great objections to them. Where a person is not dead and just to get one of his organs for transplanting purposes they get rid of the person. Their exc use is this, that he is clinically dead. Not really dead. Only clinically dead. And what do clinics know about death? Because all clinics are dead! CHELA: [Inaudible] What is the criteria of death? GURURAJ: Umm, so many factors. When there is no ox ygen going to the brain, and the brain starts developing so many... When the brain stops functioning really. That too must be very carefully examined because it might seemingly be non functioning but there might still be currents or functions there which might still be activated. But as soon as the doctor sees that, oh, some of the major parts are not functioning, they say he's dead. Then of course, they judge the heart beat. If there's no heart beat, he's dead. And it's a proven fact that many peopl e can stop their hearts at will. They can stop their breathing at will and yet be alive. Do you see? But if a person stays in th at condition for a number of days, then you can regard the person to have gone. You know, there is no circulation. The body gets cold and things like that. That is what I have against the Muhammadan people and the Hindu people. They

14. U S 83 - 45 have a rule that if a person dies in the morning, he must be buried or cremated before sunset. I've told my people the day when you think I am d ead, don't cremate me immediately. Let me lie for seven days. I might just have gone off in meditation. So don't you go and cremate me before sunset. [laughter] I might just have gone into deep meditation and stopped the heart and the breathing and the works. Gone on a nice little trip, a holiday. Yes. Then I wouldn't have a house to come back to. CHELA: [Inaudible] [Question having to do with birth defects.] GURURAJ: Well, I can tell you of myself. One of my sons was born mentally retarded. You k now, very, very backward. Mentally retarded. We went to all the finest doctors you could ever get. They said well something just happened in the womb and they can't explain it. Meanwhile, the other children have a very high IQ, much, much above than the average child. So, I started meditating on little [Giresh?]. I found that he had to merge away into Divinity and he just needed thi s little experience which was [a?] balance. We can't say that this happens in all cases, but I am talking of my experienc e. We're talking.... Oh, yes? Sorry. CHELA: You were talking yesterday about some people that are Christian and they ignore that. One of the main principles of Christianity is that there is a life after death or however it might be described. [Inaudi ble] GURURAJ: The baby? CHELA: Baby Doe. Like severely mentally retarded and physically really in bad shape and the parents would not allow the doctors to do anything and the baby died. Because the baby would be severely mentally retarded and the child would not be able to function in a normal way even if they did help it. Anyway there was a big law suit about it. [Inaudible] ... sued the parents and the hospital because they had allowed the baby to die instead of treating it. It just seemed like that 's ignoring that basic Christian principle in a way that... You know, they get really upset because they say that oh this child has the right to live. It seems real contradictory to that thing that there's life after death or there's a continuing of yo ur soul. Anyway... GURURAJ: Well, I personally would side up with the church to say let those doctors do what they can do. And if the baby has to die, it will die in any case. It's like a person dying of thirst and lying in the gutter. Do you just pass him by without giving him a glass of water? Hmm? So let the doctors try and see what can be done. If nothing can be done, it's

15. U S 83 - 45 inevitable that the baby will have to go. But I think it's wrong of the parents not to allow the doctors to do their job. Y o u never know. How could they jump to such conclusions? Hmm? Yes. CHELA: [Inaudible] [Question having to do with reason for difference in strength of desire.] GURURAJ: Yes. Beautiful. You see the desire stems from the very first primal atom. And t he workings of this atom expressed itself in a minute form of desire. There would be or else the atom would not exist. The very electrons, I think, circulating around the nucleus of the atom. That is not only a mechanical process or a gravitational proc ess in the atom. But in that very gravitation, there is a consciousness. And that consciousness contains the seed of desire. So, as one evolves more and more and more that desire to reach back to the nucleus becomes stronger and stronger and stronger. S o everyone has the desire to reach back home. But with some people that desire for reaching back home becomes diffused. They get sidetracked into the various mundane things of life, and although the desire is there to reach back home, it is covered up. W hile with other people that desire is less covered. Myself, for example. Although I have lived a business life and this and that, yet the desire (or the realization, rather, in my case) was there all the time that I am at home, I am at one ment with divi nity. Do you see? So in some people like this person I mentioned that is sitting in this room you know has, although involved in all the mundane things, the first thing in the mind is achieving that isness, that oneness with divinity. We sidetrack ours elves and that diminishes the desire. Umm, ten to one? Pardon? CHELA: Gururaj, is it lonely there? GURURAJ: No. It's full of company. It's not lonely. No. It's not lonely. It's nice. Joy. And joy can never be lonely. You can be alone but never lonely. That's the difference. It's nice to be alone to enjoy the solitude. It's only the mind that wants company. But when you are above the mind... CHELA: But don't you... feel separated? GURURAJ: You are not separated. You are part and parcel of it. A drop of water falls into the ocean, it is not separated. It becomes part and parcel of the ocean . It becomes the entire ocean. So the one drop of water, the energy contained, merges and mixes with all the energy in the ocean. So how can it be lonely? It's beautiful.

16. U S 83 - 45 CHELA: [Inaudible] Everybody isn't there with you. GURURAJ: Now, who is everybo dy, you see? When only I exist and everybody exists in me. We identify everybody with oh, that's Jim and that's Ed and that's Ken and that's David. You see. We're separating. Hmm? And that separation ceases. Oh there's no Ken. There's Gururaj sittin g there. Yes, there's Gururaj sitting in David's seat there, in his heart. He is Gururaj. There's Gururaj! There's Gururaj! All. How can you be lonely? Hmm? [laughs] Yes. This family went to the sea side to swim. So the little boy asked, "Can I go swimming, Mummy?" So the mother said, "No, the water's too deep." So he says, "But Daddy's swimming." She replies, "That doesn't matter. He's insured." It's break time. It's just about one. Going on one. [End of side two.] ***END***

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