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1. U S 85 - 5 THE MIND GURURAJ: ...diagram of the mind, and of course it does work not in sections, but it works together. But for the purpose of explanation I would divide it up into sections. Now the manas is the lower mind, and the lower mind is totally governed by sensory input. And the five senses are seein g, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. Most people operate on this level alone. But the operation of this level cannot be achieved without chitta, which is the subconscious mind. So the input from the subconscious impressions... [PAUSE] (What is sh aking?) So the impressions that are in the subconscious mind, which is gained over millions of years, including this lifetime, these impressions feed the lower mind and makes one decide the value of the sensory input. So without the subconscious mind one will never be able to recognize any of these. You won't feel touch, you won't taste, you won't smell, you won't hear, you won't see, because this has always to be fed by these impressions which contain the cubbyholes that we spoke about. So this in turn is fed by ahankara, the ego self. Now the ego self is also controlled by the subconscious mind. So there is a to and back movement between these three levels. So, to repeat again, the lower mind is controlled by sensory input. And the lower mind is dep endent on the impressions carried on in the subconscious mind. Now this determines, this input there determines, the size of your ego. Right. This ego sense gives you that individuality, the sense of I ness, and that i s the biggest trouble. Right. Onc e you have the sense of I ness, the little I, then that in turn influences far more greatly your sensory inputs. And when the sensory inputs are so much governed by that ego self you are far away from Divinity. But that is not all that happens. All this is fed to the buddhi, or the intellect, and the intellect is the deciding factor of what to tell the ego. And then ego compares with the samskaras and that is translated to the lower mind which acts the way a pe rson acts. So all actions performed are controlled by all four factors. The intellect tells you, tells the ego, what is rig ht or wrong for itself. And what the intellect tells the ego self is dependent upon the impressions in the subconscious mind. So the ego self cannot operate with pure intellect only, but with the impressions there. So here the manas or the lower mind just becomes a vehicle to receive sensory input and send out in action sensory input. Now how can one perfect one's actions and tho ughts? How can one change these actions and thoughts is by taking in all the sensory input into the lower mind and transmitting it to the subconscious mind which has to clear itself of impressions which is done through our spiritual practices. So the les s the impressions that are there the more would it connect with the lower mind and the more would it become oblivious of the sensory input. And by oblivious I mean that the sensory input will have a finer quality in its translation into acts and thoughts. Now in order to have this, here is your biggest stumbling block. Right. Now you will see that the spirit is all pervasive. It covers all the areas, and if it does not cover these areas, this mind won't work. But our trouble is that we do not let

2. U S 85 - 5 enough light shine through to the intellect. And if enough light does not shine through from the spirit to the intellect, its information or judgment it makes will effect the ego self, supported naturally by comparison of the impressions in the subconscious min d. Good. So our entire life is dependent on these areas. But through meditation and spiritual practices we find greater clarity here. Then it goes right through to the lower mind because the intellect is not involved. The intellect has limitations. I t goes right through the ego self which becomes more and more expanded and more transparent. So the transparency of the ego self is important for the effect to be on the lower mind. Now, so when we talk of controlling our sensory inputs here, we cannot co ntrol them at all. You cannot control your seeing, you cannot control your hearing, or tasting, or touching, etc. But control becomes automatic if one allows the light of the spirit to shine through. So you are controlling your lower mind, which is depen dent on these factors. There's an automatic control. Because if you tried to control any of these sensory inputs you would only be creating inhibitions and repressions. Because you would be forcing yourself into something of which your nature is not read y yet. Your ego self is not ready yet to have this all in control. And when the sensory input is in control then we can say we are masters of our life and life is not mastering us. So the whole secret is this blockage here, and to find greater transparen cy there, so that the entire area can be affected. Any questions so far? ROOPA: Yeah, what supports the buddhi? What puts it there. What feeds it or what is it? GURURAJ: Well, everything is fed by this, by the spirit itself, everything is fed by i t but in a very limited way. The buddhi at this level is the superconscious mind at that level. So from the conscious mind, which is the lower mind, we take into consideration the subconscious mind, and the two of them constitute the ego self. And then from there, using the lower mind, we reach the spirit and draw from it. It's a cleansing process of getting rid of samskaras, of karma; that which affects us in daily life you can see it from there or am I in the way which affects us in daily life. It affects all our actions, it affects all our thoughts because we are not allowing enough light from the spirit to shine through. Now this entire structure of the mind, because of the ego self, we individualize it. Really speaking, there is only one mind . Really speaking, the entirety of the one mind is as vast as the spirit itself. It is but a superimposition upon the spiritua l self. Now what we do by spiritual practices is bring the spirit up and let the mind go down. And when we let the mind go down, the mind disappears. So, therefore, that is the basis of the illusions we go through. We only find things to be real because we are governed by sensory input. But if we are governed by the force of the spiritual self that flows through, then all your p roblems are gone. Any more questions?

3. U S 85 - 5 SUJAY: I have a question. Can the ego initiate action? GURURAJ: It is the ego that initiates action in combination with the lower mind and subconscious mind. SUJAY: Do they have to be inspired somehow by the sp irit? GURURAJ: Yes. Now as I said, the spirit permeates everything, it is omnipresent. But because of the opaqueness of the individualized mind that the fullness of the spirit does not shine through. And through spiritual practices we clear up this ar ea. And that is how we find ourself at one ment with Divinity, which is spirit. Do you see? The spiritual self, as we have said many times, is all pervading. So it has to pervade the mind as well, and it is a univers al mind. So as a person gets greate r mastery of sensory input by drawing forth from the spiritual self, one develops more and more awareness. That means you are now proceeding from the individual ego self, the individual mind, to the universal mind. And when you approach the universal mind , because this body has been cut off, then you become the universal mind and at the same time you become the spiritual self. Because one is the manifestation of the Manifestor. Is that clear? Alright, any questions Mr. Computer brain? Okay, Patty. Be cause if we go on this slowly by asking questions so if there's anything not to be... I'm trying to be as simple as possible, but if there's something not too clear please as k. Right, Patty. She's first. PATTY: If the ego, I mean if the spirit permeat es all the mind and through our individual awareness, wherever we are in our individual awareness, how does the spirit use the ego in order to help unfold us? I'm not sure... is that clear? GURURAJ: That's clear to me, yes. The ego can be used as a too l by the realization that I am not the little self. When one realizes that I am not the little self but the universal self, then automatically all the sense of that I ness will disap pear. Now in our method one thing happens is this that you do not need to worry about the ego. You do not need to worry about the chitta. You do not need to worry of the intellect. But you get the direct line from the spirit to the lower mind and clarify the lower mind, which, as I said, in turn changes our action in daily l ife. It changes our thoughts because actions are dependent on thoughts. And it is these factors, the lower mind, subconscious mind and the ego self that creates thoughts because of its impressions.

4. U S 85 - 5 Now many people think that they create thoughts, but it is not so. They are only drawing thoughts from the subconscious self. There are very few original thinkers in the world, very few of them. What you are actually doing is reliving certain thoughts that you originally had perhaps in some other lifetime. And then as we had discussed before that, it's all in a split second. You know, we measure time linearly but really speaking there is no linear time. For if there was linear time in the whole concept of things, then the spirit would be limited and it is unlimited. So man himself is totally unlimited. But he has to just clear this little area and then he will find himself totally unlimited and the reservoir of all knowledge that has ev er been put forth in this world since to use the word time began. C HETAN: So Guruji when this is erased because of the strength of the spirit and this becomes all memory, all knowledge, which you were just saying, and when this is erased the little I becomes the big I, which you said. But then does it not go further? W hen this is erased and there is no longer a separation here, there is no longer this it changes it must be.... GURURAJ: Ahaa, very good. CHETAN: ...a lack of separation there, too. Because you become [INAUDIBLE]. GURURAJ: Now even the most self realized man in his bodily form will always maintain two percent ego. SUJAY: Two percent milk. ROOPA: Right, low fat. [LAUGHTER] GURURAJ: Because if you don't maintain that two percent ego then you will become totall y non functional. Do you see? You won't be able to go to the bathroom, you won't be able to eat, you won't be able to do anything at all. So this two percent disappears only after this body is discarded. Now what happens to that two percent? That two percent of the ego self merges away to which it is attracted, like birds of a feather flock together. In that way that two percent that's left after discarding the body goes to its various elements and then you are just that pure spirit. And that is self realization. Right. Patty, we'll come to you now in a moment.

5. U S 85 - 5 PATTY: When one realizes that one is not one's little self and that line of your superconscious begins to come through... GURURAJ: Permeate. PATTY: ...okay, and the spirit is guiding th is movement of the ego self, using the ego self as a tool for the unfoldment of the individual, is there any right or wrong action? GURURAJ: No. When you reach a sense of greater transparency of the ego self, then whatever action you perform will be tot ally non binding. It won't create more samskaras. So like the Buddhists would say, "Get off the wheel of karma." Do you see? VOICE: As I understand what you've just said, we don't have to worry about shrinking the ego, we have to attack the barrier bet ween the two [?????????]? GURURAJ: That's right, that's right. I don't know if I told this little story here. There was this great emperor, you know , and he gave a large party in his palace. And being a very generous person he said, "Whatever you to uch is yours." Now there are so many treasures. So many ran for the jewels, many ran for the diamonds, many for the gold ornaments and all kinds of things and that's all what they got. Fine. There was a servant in the house, servant girl, she says, "Wou ld you kindly repeat again sir what you said?" And he said that, "Whatever you touch belongs to you." So she touched the emperor. So, naturally, according to the promise given the emperor was hers and she possessed his entire empire. See? So that is ho w let us touch the emperor and forget the little details because they would definitely take care of themselves. Do you see? Now you'll find in modern theologies they try to attack or reach the emperor from outside, from the lower mind you see, and that is where they fail. Because you'll always have the sensory inputs interfering your path to the emperor. But why not start with the emperor and bring him out? I've always said this many times, "You take one step forward and He takes ten steps towards you." You see? So, therefore, meditational practices are very, very important to gain greater clarity of mind, to develop that total awareness, where you are aware of the entire universe and yet you are living in a body, with of course that two percent. Right . You are living in the body and yet you have the full appreciation of the whole empire. Now the servant girl she was living in the body but she possessed the whole empire. Do you see?

6. U S 85 - 5 So that brings in it's wake joy, happiness, and the real wealth whic h is within you and it can be used. It's a simple process, a very simple process. And man was born to understand the workings of the spirit, or otherwise he would not come into existence. Now this universe came into existence because it had to. The Man ifestor has to manifest and therefore the world has come into existence. But now the manifestation has to merge into the Manifestor and that is the goal in life, the aim in life, and it is inborn in us. If you search within yourself you will find you wan t to reach total happiness. And total joy, total bliss is nothing else but the spirit. So that idea is inborn but the only thing we have to do is to activate it. In other words we are helping the emperor, we are helping the spirit to come through to us. We are helping the spirit because the spirit is an energy. Though permeating everything it is has nothing to do with your mind. It will not change your mind at all. But you, you yourself can make the spirit change your mind. Transformation. Over ther e? VOICE: To what extent can we use the conscious mind and the intellect to choose the thoughts you want to believe as a vehicle for helping us to achieve at one ment? GURURAJ: Don't believe at all. And by doing your spiritual practices, I believe you've just been initiated today, was it? No, no, no, right. You do not believe because all beliefs can be wrong. Today you would believe in this, tomorrow you will believe in that, and the next day you will believe in something else. So it has no permanency and as I've always said if there's no permanency in believing then it is valueless. Because all believing has to be discarded. Because believing is colored by these [INDICATES AREAS ON BLACKBOARD] sections of your mind. So it is your intellect that might find something appealing to you and that which appeals to you is drawn from the subconscious as a comparison. For example, if you like turkey, you have had experie nce of eating turkey and you enjoyed it very much. So you believe turkey that is served on the table tonight, for example, is going to be nice. But the cook might have messed it up. You see. VOICE: So by the very act of choosing you are creating duali ty then? GURURAJ: By the act of choosing you are creating a duality, definitely. Definitely. But in order for the intellect to pass on proper thoughts, the more it is empowered, the more the light of the spirit shines through, then your choice will be always for the best and your actions will be regulated into good actions. You see? So when we go beyond belief, then you land in the area of knowingness. Then you just know. You do not need to believe. For example you believe that, say the Christians th ey believe that God is sitting up there is Heaven on a throne a long beard and what have you. The

7. U S 85 - 5 Hindus believe that God has four arms or six arms, and other religions believe in other things. Right, so those are beliefs. But what proof have you got th at there is a God sitting up there with a long beard? But the spiritual force can definitely be experienced. Like for example, I've used this analogy many times, you sit in this room and you are told that there is fire, burning fire, in the other room. Now here you are just believing. You are not feeling the fire or experiencing the fire, although the fire is there. But as you approach the other room you feel the heat coming. Right, and when you feel the heat is coming, then your belief turns into fai th. And from faith you proceed further and you jump into the fire and you become the fire. Don't take it literally. You become it and that is knowingness. You know. You know. For example, if anyone asks me, "Do you believe" I say no, I don't believe . I know. Because I experience it every moment of the day. You see. Jamie. JAMMU: No, I'm [????]. I'm hoping for a shrinkage of the barrier. GURURAJ: So let us tackle it from this area instead of from this area because this area here, the lower mind, can be very confusing because it is totally governed by the subconscious and the ego self in combination with the intellect which is the decider: shall I go to San Francisco, or shall I go to Los Angeles? It decides and it might decide wrongly. Per haps Los Angeles might be better to go to than to San Francisco. VOICE: How does the, wait a minute, okay, the first thing that is involved in creative acts, you know, whatever that might be, where is that coming from? I believe it comes from the spirit , but I'm trying to understand what the process would be for that kind of movement in an individual. GURURAJ: You do not create in the first place. You do not create in the first place and it does not come from the spirit either. What happens is this, t hat every thought that is thought remains eternal. Every thought that you have thought or others would think throughout millenniums is never destroyed. For example, when a composer composes a piece of music or a poet writes a poem or an artist creates a beautiful painting, he is not creating it. What he is doing is getting to a certain level of the mind where he picks up all those thoughts that were thought to write that poem, and then of course, when he picks this up at the subtler level he has to transl ate it to this level here of the conscious mind or the lower mind via all these channels and then he writes it down. So, therefore, two poets might write poems on the same subject, but they will be different because what they pick up at the superconscious level has to be translated through the various impressions, experiences, samskaras, and the level of how much he is involved in the ego. A great writer, or a great poet,

8. U S 85 - 5 or a great musician has very little ego, very little ego, because he has clarified i t to capture. For example, Mozart he could see the entire symphony and the various parts of the symphony at the same time. Bach composed his greatest music when he was tone deaf. So you don't need to hear to compose, you see. That hearing comes from in side, from this level via that. You see. VOICE: In your model there where are all those thoughts that have ever been thought? GURURAJ: Throughout the universe. VOICE: But where are they located in the model? Are they with the spirit or are they wit h the subconscious? GURURAJ: They are picked up by the intellect and interpreted through the subconscious and through the ego self to the conscious mind. But all those thoughts are not existent in the spirit. They are existent in the universe. And th ought is also a form. Thought is also a matter. As a matter of fact you can see thought. You can see a person thinking in various ways. And therefore I ask you, you know, to do any painting you like, because I could get right into your mind and the form ation of the thought and what you are picking up from the universal mind. That's the way it is. [INAUDIBLE] Yeah, carry on. VOICE: We've noted that various scientific discoveries are made in parallel by various people, one in one part of the world anot her in another part of the world, really simultaneously. GURURAJ: Yes, that is very true because both those minds have been attuned at the same level. That is why it is done simultaneously. The greatest inventions in the world or discoveries has come in a flash. Just in a flash. All the thinking did not hel p. For example, Edison. He experimented with the bulb, right, and he failed ten thousand times. And then that inspiration just came there how to create that filament. VOICE: He never gave up. GURURAJ: Never give up? So same thing applies we never g ive up our spiritual practices. [LAUGHTER] Right. For example this fellow that did the benzene, what do you call...

9. U S 85 - 5 VOICE: Kekule was his name. GURURAJ: Kelule right, the benzene thing. Just all of a sudden it dawned in his mind, a snake, and the t ail of the snake was in the snake's mouth. And from that he got the idea of the structure of benzene. You see, so these things just come automatically. Do you know how long it took me to start up this organization, which we are in many, many countries? It took me two seconds flat and I had it all pictured there, like that. VOICE: Have you read [????????] GURURAJ: [LAUGHTER] Lovely. Beautiful. If the pure consciousness within me should rest for half a second the entire universe will collapse. Any more? Ladies first. ROOPA: You have the intellect quite removed from the lower mind and yet you say that most people live most of their life completely within that little thing there and you don't have it connected with the intellect. Are you saying most people do not have much of a functional connection with their intellect? GURURAJ: They do have a functional creation with the intellect, you know, functional. The intellect is functional all the time. But if this spirit or intelligence is not perm eating, then the intellect will be very limited. So we are trying to find no limitations to the intellect and limitations only come about because it has to go through all these sections. Now do remember that the intellect and the ahankara and the chitta and the manas do not operate separately. It is just for the purpose of the diagram. They all operate together. ROOPA: Does the intellect evolve? GURURAJ: The intellect does not evolve, but it becomes more aware. So if you would like to call greater awareness evolving it's the same thing. VOICE: Where do the emotions fit in? In what section do the emotions come from?

10. U S 85 - 5 GURURAJ: The emotions includes the entirety. Hey, that's a perfect circle. You know when I was a boy of about eight a sadhu, o r a holy man, was passing through the village. So, you know, my quest for Divinity had been since the age of four when I ran away from home. You must have read it in one of the little biographies. And this holy man was passing through and I spoke to him and I said, "Could you give me any practice spiritual practice?" So he looked at me for a while and he closed his eyes for a few minutes and he said, "Yes, I have a practice for you. What you do is just draw circles." Now to me it sounded stupid at t hat time, drawing circles. And I drew enough circles on paper to plaster this entire complex here. But what he tried to do for me is to get my mind totally focused. Well, I can't do it so well now but still it looks perfect. Yeh, but those times when I was in better health I could draw circles perfect. You could even mark it off with a compass and it won't be out a bit. So it helped me concentrate the mind, focus the mind, focus all the energies of the mind and it was a good practice for a child. And you have the same practice also in doing your tratak. That without concentrating you're focusing all the energies of your mind to a central point. And you would be surprised when you do your tratak the various things you see. And later you will learn h ow to interpret the various colors and things you see while doing tratak. It's a very, very important practice. So do it. Jamie, you were going to say something? JAMIE: Oh yes. Before we start our practices the actor and the observer, as I understand what we are talking about, are located right up here in that little I under the ego and then as [come through]? our practices the actor moves up front. So where doe s the observer end up? GURURAJ: Ahaa, this is the observer, right, and it observes your personality or your ego self and that you will find in the practice of our chant. Right. When you do about three rounds you feel as if the chant is going on on its own and you are watching yourself chanting. So that gives you the sense of the little I and the big I. And that's how the big I starts observing all the actions of the little I. So whatever actions you perform would not be effective as far as your samsk aras go. So that's the purpose of the chant and not only that, in chanting what happens is that you heighten the vibrations. Those words are so scientifically worked out, those sounds, that it can reach the highest point of relativity. And not only that , it is measured in such a way that it is pranayama also, because in that aim hrim krim chamunda ye ve che che you're exhaling out, exhaling out toxins. Right. You're bringing a rhythm into the body and when the body is brought into rhythm the mind also becomes into a rhythmic pattern. So you create rhythm in the body, you're getting rid of toxins, and your mind becomes calmer, and the big I starts watching the little I. And when this becomes habitual then you will unconsciously, perhaps, or consciously observe every action of yours.

11. U S 85 - 5 [END SIDE ONE] You develop awareness because the big I has such great power and force that you become aware. And when you are aware of your actions then you can correct them if they seem to be wrong. And that is how the intellect comes into play directly with the conscious mind. And, of course, the conscious mind interprets what the intellect says. Yes? VOICE: This is all new to be so I'm trying to understand it from the mind perspective... GURURAJ: Naturally it w ould be new to you because none of our modern psychologists and psychiatrists know about this science. VOICE: So what is the correct... From my understanding at this period, the subconscious mind is the depositor [INAUDIBLE] GURURAJ: Yeh, that is the m emory box. That is the memory box from which we draw past experiences. VOICE: So as we go on in life and experience things the negative things that happen to us, or the things we judge as negative, would sort of store there and the ego protects us from those things repeating. I don't know if this is going to come out right or not. GURURAJ: It doesn't matter say it in your words. VOICE: After a time, I know this from myself, I don't know whether I can make a decision or not based on any kind of corre ct action because so much of my thinking comes from past. GURURAJ: That's right. VOICE: It's very difficult to make a decision from the here and now. It's all so cluttered over with... So this is a way t o get past those limiting [??????]

12. U S 85 - 5 GURURAJ: T hat's right, yes. Because the ego self will definitely be influenced by the memory box that we have within us. So if we can bypass that then we do not need to bring memory into play. We are bringing a higher force of the spirit and that higher force wil l decide and you will never go wrong. VOICE: So that would be the term when someone has needs? GURURAJ: Yes. VOICE: Do needs come from the subconscious mind? GURURAJ: Yes. Needs. The memory brings about the needs, and because of past experiences or trying to keep this ego self alive, we always try and need more than what we really need. So as the old saying goes, you don't get what you want but you get what you need. Yes? VOICE: When we bypass the mind and the spirit begins to come through or [?????] that channel. [INAUDIBLE] still to come to pass? GURURAJ: Come to pass? VIDYA: Do you mean do we still collect samskaras? VOICE: Not [??????] do the y have to be wiped out. GURURAJ: Yes, they do get wiped out because with that light of the spirit darkness cannot exist. So it gets wiped out automatically. VOICE: In a flash or is it something you have to keep going through?

13. U S 85 - 5 GURURAJ: Well, it depen ds how many samskaras you have in that box. [LAUGHTER] You have people that were born in this world, say for example Yehudhi Menuhin, he used to play all the symphonies at the age of four. Where did he get it from? He got it from previous lives where h is life, you know, suddenly ended. The previous life suddenly ended and all that was carried forward into his present life and therefore, even at the age of four, he had the full knowledge of all the symphonies. That's the way it works. For example, a gi fted person, right, he has carried forth from previous lives a lot of those gifts to become a great artist or a painter or a singer or whatever. Some people cultivate it. Some people cultivate i t and some are just naturals. So when a person is just a nat ural, then remember it is some of the memory of a previous life which he has done. Yes? VOICE: I'm trying to understand when you do the spiritual practices what happens to the impressions of the memory box, the subconscious? How does that practice or t hat process of practice clear that out? Is it something that we know and we're aware of or is it just by doing the practice it just gets cleared away and we don't even know what it is? GURURAJ: Right. Now what happens is, it's practically the same ques tion which Bill asked, that this memory box contains all the impressions. Fine. And if we try and get rid of those impressions one by one by one it will take you another two hundred million years. Right. So rather not let that... by the spiritual prac tices we are drawing the light of the spirit and getting rid of this darkness. VOICE: What I'm wondering is do we know any of the darkness that we're getting rid of? Does our conscious mind become aware of something we are releasing. GURURAJ: Sometimes you do depending on how perceptive you are and sometimes you don't. For example, this room is dark and you switch on the light. Does the darkness know that I have disappeared? No. It does not. Do you see? Thank God for one thing t hat He has given us the ability to forget. I always say that. Because if you had to remember all the past impressions of previous lives this life would become intolerable. Because you have gone through a lot. Everyone has, I know. When I say you I mea n everyone. Uh huh? ROOPA: When we use the mantra that you've given to us, that you chose... GURURAJ: I don't choose it, by the way, but carry on with the question.

14. U S 85 - 5 ROOPA: Whatever... I wasn't sure what word to use. When we use that mantra as oppos ed to any old mantra, there's lots of mantras going around, you know? GURURAJ: Right. Definitely. And I know one organization that's made a few billion using sixteen mantras which you can find in any of [Woodrolph's?] books on tantra yoga. ROOPA: But I mean when someone uses that mantra I have a couple questions about it. I would like to know how it fits into there? And I would like to know who is thinking the mantra? I know this is all a whole. You said it's all together and not really separated, but who's thinking the mantra? GURURAJ: Beautiful. Now, as you know as a teacher, that when I get the form I use the picture there as a focal point, and going into very deep meditation at this level here, right, at that level. When I pick up that sou nd in this area, because this is the connecting area to the spiritual area. So when I pick up that sound at that area I still have to bring it throug h the intellect of which there is very little. And then through that two percent there and then to be tra nsferred to the lower mind or the conscious mind. Now that is at such a subtle area that the conscious mind has to be used to make your sound vibration speakable and audible. That is the process of how a mantra comes about. For example, Sanskrit, and I' ve explained this to you before, that how was Sanskrit first created. It was a sage would sit in front of a chair and he would go into meditation and he would hear the word chair, chair, at a subtle form, but he has to bring it down through the conscious mind to a speakable, audible form. And that is how Sanskrit, the mother of all languages, was formed. Now this is the same principle. And not only that, the very important part is this, that the mantra given to you contains all th e energy of the spirit. And I am only a channel. That looks like an egg. That's all that happens. And the important thing, with that sound you get you get that force of the spirit or gurushakti. Call it whatever you want because there's no word really to describe it. An d because of that spiritual force contained in that sound you find great benefit. For example, say, if there was some mechanical device that could take your mind, body and spirit and mix it up, your mantra would be the sound that would be heard. Now what happens when the mantra I'm glad you brought this up because many people don't know this sometimes I'm approached and asked, "Is it about time for me to get another mantra?" I say, "No, your mantra is you." But what will happen is this that by con tinual meditation your mantra will become finer and finer and finer and finer until it reaches the area where I've picked it up. Those changes does occur after regular practice, of course. So your mantra doesn't need to be changed, it's you. And these c hanges, by continual practice, the changes become

15. U S 85 - 5 automatic. It's not a conscious process. So we start by using the conscious mind, lead the mantra to this area, and we create an opening where light shines through. Right. And as you practice more and m ore, this opening becomes vaster and vaster and vaster and vaster until the totality of that shines through to the lower mind. VOICE: Sometimes my experience has been, and it's interesting because it fits in so perfectly with the way you drew this, that I feel sort of my higher self coming through me, and my intellect, because of its training, will say, "You shouldn't allow yourself to do this." You know what I'm saying and like guilt and all kinds of weird blocking devices come up. And that fit s in wit h what you said. GURURAJ: Yes, oh yes, it is a cleansing process. Sometimes, to some people, it might be slightly painful and to others not so. For example, if a pot is greasy, as these wonderful cooks know, if a pot is greasy you got to use a scourer. The pot does get hurt but it becomes clean. [Ajay]? VOICE: If the mantra is us and it becomes more and more... GURURAJ: Subtler. VOICE: ...more and more subtle, where does the spiritual name [fit in we have]? Where does that come from and how doe s that relate to [?????] of the mantra? GURURAJ: Good, good, good. It does not relate at all to the mantra. VOICE: No, I meant the spirit of the mantra is for our development and it becomes our essence, where does the spiritual name fit in to such a s eparate sound? GURURAJ: Right. Yes, it's a separate sound altogether. I tell you how it fits in. I never give anyone a spiritual name ju st out of the blue or pull it out of a book. No. What happens is this, that I see the person in front of me with their name, t hat sound of their name, coming at the same time. Then only would I give a spiritual name, otherwise not. You see? Now a spiritual name is always based on something that you have attained or you must attain. Ajay means "the victorious." Right. So become victorious. Live up to it. When I was born, I mean Gururaj is my name which my guru gave me, but when I was born my parents gave me the name of Purushottam which means "the best among men." And I've tried very

16. U S 85 - 5 hard to live up to it. Vidya knowledge , it means. Gain more and more knowledge. Roopa merge into the beauty of Divinity. These things has to be remembered, and when that name is repeated to you, I call you Ajay, Vidya, Roopa, whatever, then it is always striking a cord. Consciously you might not recognize it, but subconsciously it sticks and then you try to become as beautiful as Divinity or she gain total knowledge of herself. Yes, and all these things have purposes. And some purposes are very subtle and some purposes are not so subtl e. But a spiritual name does remind one all the time of who I am and let me live up to it. The name given to me, Purushottam, I've done my best to live up to it to become the best among men, do you see, by realizing God, and of course that two percent I will shed when I shed this body. Which one can do at will. Which is called maha samadhi. You just sit down, go into meditation, shut your breathing and off you go. Very simple. Don't any of you try it though. [LAUGHTER] VOICE: Using your models whe n we die we drop the ego, we drop the manas. So, that leaves us with the buddhi and the chitta. So... GURURAJ: No. VOICE: No? I was trying to determine what does... GURURAJ: Right, what goes with. VOICE: Well, and even more important what deter mines the next life? It's really just our impressions [of the last life]?. GURURAJ: Right. When we leave this body we are only leaving the body and the lower mind. We're leaving that. But with us goes the memory box, the subconscious mind, and the se nse of I. These two go with and mixed with the spiritual self for it to have existence. Now in that state in another dimension, what you do is you evaluate your entire lifetime and all the lives that you have had. And in that state, in that plane, you c an't bluff yourself; you can't tell yourself lies. You are totally honest. And then you evaluate that and that evaluation gives you the birth you might require. Look, for example, a child gets born. A child might be born into a very poor, unhappy famil y; another child into a rich and very happy family. Now Divinity is not unfair to put one into unhappy circumstances and another into better circumstances. It is you yourself that determines your next life. So, therefore, if this life has gained some rea lizations of Divinity, then your next life will definitely be better. That's for sure. But I don't want you to have a next life. I want you to go into nirvana self reali zation. Hm?

17. U S 85 - 5 VOICE: It's triggered a question from me. If what we're working on is removing the mind, or the blockage, then, like you said, self realization, nirvana, it seems when do we reach that, when that line is totally gone or... GURURAJ: Yes, when that line is totally gone, we reach that. So you can be self realized while st ill being in the body. VOICE: You can be self realized and realize nirvana while still in the body? GURURAJ: Oh, yes. VOICE: When we die and we've reached nirvana in this life and we die and we come back in a new life with that line there again? GUR URAJ: No, no, then it's gone, finished. VOICE: Then we don't come back? GURURAJ: No. You are finished, altogether. You don't come back. It's like a drop of water falling into the ocean and you become one with the ocean. And then when the next creation begins you start off again as that primal atom. VOICES: [MOANING FROM AUDIENCE] ROOPA: We have a complaint from some of these people. [LAUGHTER] GURURAJ: You know there are... Yes. No, you would come back with that, you know, as that energy. You come back and that energy you know takes form. And then you have to go th rough a long process from the mineral stage, to the plant state, to the animal stage, to the primitive man, to the highly evolved man and you move in a cyclic fashion all the time, because you are eternal. VOICE: I thought once you were enlightened that was it. I mean there was no going...

18. U S 85 - 5 GURURAJ: No. When the next cycle of the universe begins you are part and part of that manifestation again. VOICE: Yes, but will each one of us be born sort of the same energy, the same final sound, the same, almos t, it won't be the same. GURURAJ: No, no, it's a different... No, it will be different. At every cycle, you know when you go into pralay all that disappears and you are in a new cycle altogether. And then what you do in the new cycle, the new creation, you do not need to worry about, because that's still going to take [LAUGHTER] two thousand billion years. She hasn't had a chance here. VOICE: [PARTIALLY INAUDIBLE] ...our ego goes with us, would I recognize you? GURURAJ: No, you won't. VOICE: But o ur ego, you said, continues. GURURAJ: Your ego continues. But if your thought is strong enough about me, this ego self and the subconscious mind, if you have me strong enough with you in your thoughts, then I will meet you there. VOICE: Do we need a reservation? [LAUGHTER] GURURAJ: You know, I was telling... I was telling at some talk, I think I've done over four thousand talks in this past twelve years, I was telling them that you are very fond of this chair, very attached to it, you can take the chair with you when you die. Because of your deep attachment to this chair in the other dimension, you will be projecting it as the same chair. But it would be a projection. For example, if you love someone very deeply you know the normal thing is this t hat you will meet that other person on the other side or someone that you are very much attached to, but you don't meet that person. You never could meet that person, but what you will meet is your projection of that person. So it is still your min d work ing. Yes?

19. U S 85 - 5 VOICE: You always encourage us or say we need to experience Divinity. What happens to a person, what's going on, using the model there, if the person knows in their intellect knows of Divinity but they're not experiencing it. So we know all you're telli ng us, but we're not experiencing it. So what's happening? GURURAJ: What's happening is this that your blockage is there, which has to be cleared up. Because your intellect just functioning just from this area would find and understand the truth I am t alking about. But that is only an understanding which you have gained. It has not been experienced. VOICE: So experience itself is what opens that up. GURURAJ: That's right. The more experience we get the more the line opens up. VOICE: The more th e light comes through. GURURAJ: The more the light comes through. Beautiful. Right. Like a window pane which is dirty and through spiritual practices you are cleaning the pane so the light comes through clearly. You wanted to say something did you? V OICE: I forgot. GURURAJ: Oh, you forgot. Yes? VOICE: So part of what I was saying before about the line. We may die with just sort of a half clean window and then when we come back we clean it some more. GURURAJ: That's right. But you'll have a better quality of life. VOICE: Does the window get dirty again? Once it's cleaned? If you reach nirvana is that just a momentary thing or is there...?

20. U S 85 - 5 GURURAJ: No, there is a permanency in it like I mentioned in the talk. Say that is the human king dom and in that human kingdom you can fluctuate up and down and up and down until you transcend it. That's what happens. VOICE: But doesn't that get wiped out in the next cycle of creation? GURURAJ: Yes, oh yes, oh yes. And do you know, do you know, n ow there's something very, here's something very revolutionary which I'm going to tell you. Here is something very revolutionary which I'm going to tell you. When the universe goes into pralay or dissolves itself, and why is the universe created again? It is created again because of people not having completed or rubbed off their samskaras. So that current remains. And it is that very current that causes a new creation or manifestation. Call it what you want to. Do you see? So don't worry you'll be alright. [LAUGHTER] VOICE: You'll get another chance. GURURAJ: But that's two thousand billion years away. Let's worry about today. Here and now. But I mean as a subject for discussion... VOICE: So just to extrapolate that further with each pralay the current becomes less and less, because samskaras are wiped out. So eventually there will never be another creation? GURURAJ: No, there will never be a time when all samskaras would be wiped out completely. There will remain some currents which will recreate. It's a process that takes billions and billions of years. VOICE: You spoke earlier about other planets where there are higher beings who are operating at a much higher level than us. [INAUDIBLE] ...in joy and peace now. If we are born again, reincarnated on one of those planets... GURURAJ: Then be sure to know that you have cleaned up a lot of this area or else you would not be born on another planet. The greater the clarity her e, that will determine your next life. VOICE: So the people on that planet, the beings on that planet are still cleaning.... GURURAJ: Evolving. Oh yes, they are still evolving, oh yes. Definitely.

21. U S 85 - 5 VOICE: So is it possible to get from this planet to nirvana without having to go through that one or.... GURURAJ: Yes. Now that is our aim. Instead of having to go through all these various dimensions of existence or even coming back to this Earth, we are trying to.... Do you see the universe is vast. [DEMONSTRATES] Right. It is a continuum, and we are only functioning here in the small level. Four thousand billion people in the small little this is ev en too big in this vast continuum. So as souls evolve from this side they enter here and souls that evolve more goes on. VOICE: Is that why there are so few self realized men on this planet? GURURAJ: There are only seven self realized men on this planet. VOICE: What about women? GURURAJ: Look, as far as the spirit is concerned there is no ma n or woman. It's neutral. The spirit is neutral. It's a neutral energy. It's like electricity; you put it in a stove you get heat, you put it in a fridge you get cold. So self rea lization has nothing to do with a person's gender, male or female or oth erwise. VOICE: But there are only seven men, right? GURURAJ: Yes. Do not call them men. Call them seven energies. VOICE: But they're in men's bodies. [LAUGHTER] PRIYA: We want to know if we have a chance. [LAUGHTER] GURURAJ: These seven energies are, there are a few women in it, oh yes, because this world does require that female self realized energy as well as the male energy. VOICE: How many?

22. U S 85 - 5 GURURAJ: Pardon? VOICE: How many women? GURURAJ: Ahh, do you want to go visit with? VOICE: Yeh, I do. [LAUGHTER] GURURAJ: Right. But out of the seven people who are self realized, six are not working actively. There is only one that is working actively to bring truth into this world. But he draws their energies [aboard]? to him all the time. That is it. So there will always be seven. Seven energies. When [Tatwalababa]?, who was a self realized man, you must have heard his name, when he shed his body someone else had to take over. And while I shouldn't, I do n't know if I should tell you this, that was the time when I had to start my present mission to make it a full seven. VOICE: You said there will always be seven. Seven is it seems a symbolic number for wholeness. Is there some reason why there will alw ays be seven? GURURAJ: Because that is the amount of energy that is required in this world. VOICE: Do you suppose that's why, I mean, I don't know. GURURAJ: Look you have seven colors in the spectrum. You have seven notes in the tonic solfa. VOICES: Seven days in the week. Is that how that number became symbolic? GURURAJ: That's how is became symbolic. That's how it became symbolic but really speaking as far as self realized men are concerned there are only that amount of energy that is r equired in this world. Otherwise, you know, this world would explode. It won't be able to contain. For example, you can't put two pints of milk in a one pint bottle.

23. U S 85 - 5 PRIYA: So on another plane one of the seven has to check out before somebody here c an become self realized? So the space is available... [INAUDIBLE] [LAUGHTER] SUJAY: We have the makings of a great spy novel here. GURURAJ: Oh, dear me. Well, it's been... SUJAY: [??????] room at the top. GURURAJ: At the top. SUJAY: There's n o space available. GURURAJ: Well she has a lot of practice, Priya has, climbing up four flights of stairs, up and down. So she has practice climbing up. Well, I think I've spoken for about an hour and a half so we shall call it a day, it's ten o'clock. **** END ****

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