2. SA76-18 were before. Another thing that has happened today is that the population today is far – far greater than what was in those times. So taking all these things into consideration, taking the rise of extreme materialism in people, today ashrams would just about take on anyone as a chela. Now the reasons I give you for this is this that even if the person, the chela, although the chela has not the qualification, if he could benefit just a little, then some purpose would be served. We in our organisation have one maxim and it is this that to turn a person into the right direction, we would never promise anyone self enlightenment in one lifetime or four lifetimes or ten lifetimes. We say self-effort is necessary. You yourself can evolve yourself through proper guidance and where there is guidance available, then by all means make use of the guidance so that you would evolve. Vivekananda for example uses an analogy that as the seed must be good, so the ground too must be well tilled for good fruit to grow. Right. So the guru in the form of the seed has to be good and at the same time the chela, the ground also has to till himself well before the tree can grow. Now in this tilling – in this tilling, pr actical methods are given, in our case meditational practices are given and at the same time each and everyone is told over and over and over again that you must use discrimination, you must discriminate between right and wrong in your daily living. You must consolidate your actions in such a total manner so that all your actions are not only done with mind and body, but also with that divine energy within you so your daily actions must be a representation of the total you, mind, body and spirit. Good. Now this you have to do consciously and this is told to everyone over and over again. Your meditational practices will give you strength by all means, but that strength has to be re -strengthened by your daily living and daily activity so that – so that your meditation and your daily living could walk hand in hand and it forms a very – very beautiful circle whereby one strengthens the other. Now so going back to those ancient vedic times, one could discriminate and that was a test to chelas that before they approach a guru, they had to prepare themselves. Everyone knew in vedic times that if you do not prepare yourself, then a guru will not accept you. Those were in vedic times. Today modern living has become such that even the poor gurus have been reduced to such a state that although they know that such and such chela is not worthy, he is not worthy to be accepted, yet he finds worth in the chela knowing the modern times, knowing the modern structure of society as it is based that is so immersed in materialism and today the guru is just satisfied, the real guru, the true guru that if I could only ignite one spark in this person’s heart. Fine! So therefore you would find chelas coming along that would have so many many negative qualities, but the purpose as you said should be pure love and not possessive love. That is very true. But for a person to conceive of and to practice pure love requires very very great purity. It is the same as saying that if you want to know god, then you become godly. If you want to know purity, then you become pure. So that love would be loving for the sake of love that exists, that beautiful

3. SA76-18 divine communion, that energy which exists between chela and guru. Good. Now that is of course the ideal. But then we have chelas that have negative qualities and they might develop a possessive love. Now the possessive love, the guru also assesses nothing goes beyond him, every flicker, a true guru, a good guru has the ability to assess even the flicker of the eyelid of chela and interpret its meaning truthfully and beautifully he would know, but behind it all he sees the divinity in the person and says, oh why is this person a chela? Because the person is still not a guru yet. The person is still learning and therefore a true guru develops or has within him very – very spontaneously all the kindnesses and all the compassion knowing the weaknesses of the chelas. Good. But behind the weaknesses he also sees the divinity. Good. Umm— someone complained to me that, oh, the servant is not working well, he’s not polishing the furniture well or washing the dishes well. So I replied this person that if the servant girl had your brains, then she would not be a servant. So if there was that perfection in the chelas, they would not be needing a guru. So therefore it is a primary aim of the guru to accept the chela with all his imperfections because it is only the guru that knows the true quality of love, that knows what true love is. In other words, he accepts the person in the totalness of that person, he does not only see the mind and the body, but he also sees that divine spirit, that eternal spirit that resides within each and everyone. So now we know, going back to your question that some chelas are possessive. Now this is seen and very openly seen by the guru and is very openly recognised, but the hope is there, the hope is there that this person will better himself as the person goes deeper and deeper into his or her practices, that person will definitely better himself. So the guru is also hopeful and so is the chela. It is the duty of the chela to be hopeful too. There comes times where sometimes a guru has to be very hard, right. He will do some bottom spanking, not only backpacking. Yeah. He has to do this to achieve a certain result. He has to do this. Sometimes the immature chela will not recognise what is done, the immature chela will not know, they will – they could only see as far as the nose is, as the saying goes. But the true guru sees behind corners, knows exactly what effect the spanking is going to have. Not only today, not only tomorrow, but for all time to come. What has been stirred up in this chela by doing this? What has been dissolved? Sometimes if you have a boil on your, say your leg, you have a boil, you use a medicine to bring the boil to the rightness. Right. Now bring that boil to the rightness can be painful sometimes. Oh yes, but after the boil is ripe and you prick it and all the, the poisons, the toxins are out, then the – the person walks well again. That's how it works. So therefore movements or people that do things on a mass basis have never really been successful as they should be as their – as their principle state. Therefore the relationship is always individual, always individual and the guru recognises the shortcomings of each and everyone because if people never had shortcomings, then they would not need the guidance or the study for self condition.

4. SA76-18 So nevertheless, as you said, there should not be possessive love which is the ideal because with possession, with possession so many other evils are associated. The idea which a guru teaches to people is to avoid the me and mind and here possessiveness is the greatest example of me and mind. Good. But nevertheless people progress out of it, people progress out of it where they slowly see that the guru is not only a man, although he’s embodied, that he is a universal spirit and how can I possess the universal spirit all to myself? They would learn to see that because as they advanced, they too broaden the horizons, they too start becoming universal – universal – universal and then the true mergence takes place between guru and chela and all possessiveness then is gone. Good. Now when chelas start their practices, say someone meditates for three months or six months, a year perhaps, they think to themselves that they have not made any progress. They think that because the subtle qualities evoked in them are not appreciated by their minds, but yet others around them see very easily, “ah, such and such is so different now or such and such is so different now,” and all the difference is more apparent to the guru and this in turn encourages the guru too to pursue, ah there is potentiality there. There is where we not trying to get blood out of a wall, there is potential there and there is progress there. Now some people want to have self enlightenment in a day and which is a false hope to most of the people. 99% of the people in the world, even the percentage can be so much higher than that, yeah. This is achieved, it’s a process, it’s a process. Some people can achieve enlightenment in one lifetime, others five lifetimes, 500 lifetimes, fine. But everyone definitely reaches the goal and proper guidance makes them reach the goal quicker. So qualities like possessiveness for example, or petty jealousies or little petty squabbles are slowly eradicated, slowly eradicated because of the love that is shown by the guru and shown very – very genuinely and sincerely. These petty squabbles are soon eradicated, but on the other hand the chelas too must make some conscious effort to come to an understanding not only within themselves but those that are around them. Those – the environment, the – the guru-bhai’s or the guru-behen’s, some understanding must come around and for this take of the guru if not for anything else, for the sake of the guru, petty differences are to be settled and a person says to himself that these petty differences we have, then we are not really worthy of our guru’s love. So what we try to do is settle petty differences. Sometimes we have to sacrifice our own egos and that is what we’re after actually, to sacrifice egos. Sometimes we have to undergo these disciplines of subduing our egos for the sake of the welfare of the many so that a movement that is started can grow from strength to strength because it is realised by us that the teachings that are given are sincere, beautiful, pure, they are the wisdom of the ages and we that want to evolve ourselves also must want to see that others evolve too because if the environment is conducive, it in turn helps us. You go into a temple or a church, the environment there is so beautiful that automatically your mind is more tuned towards meditational practices. Now who has done this for us? Other people that have prayed in those churches and temples. Other people that have gone to those churches and temples and created this lovely atmosphere and we have benefitted

5. SA76-18 by it, likewise we do that also where we try and benefit the environment so that others could also gain from it and that is th e proper sharing, that is the love that is to be generated, that is the message of Christmas, of Christ, the generation of love or the unfoldment of love as we would say. Good. And for that – for that, no one should ever lose any hope. Man is potentially divine. This I say practical at every talk and every man, every person can unfold to the maximum limit and the – and the limit to use that word, the limitless limit is the entirety of all existence. You can call it god where man, the individual self becomes the universal self, the small s becomes the big s, good. That that is achieved, that would be achieved by each and every one. What is happening now with say movement like ours is to awaken this interest, is to awaken this interest and direct a person along the proper path to bring some understanding to people that this is the path for you to reach your destination. Do not crop around in the wrong direction and if this is achieved, if this is achieved, then be sure that the person in one lifetime, five lifetimes, 500 lifetimes will surely reach the goal and more quicker, less painlessly they will reach the goal because they are throbbing the right path which will take them direct path, straight path, painless path, the path without has many obstacles as another path would have, no potholes or there might be very few and the curb is well tuned by meditational practices, by right living, by self effort, the car is well tuned and oiled and plenty of petrol there comes from the divine energy which we gain through our practices and the car goes smoothly to its goal. So like that – like that all the negative qualities we have such as pettiness’s, petty squabbles, jealousies, possessiveness’s, they all slowly disappear , they crumble away, they crumble away. Little – little rivulets, when they merge away into the ocean, then they are no more rivulets, it is the one bigger <0:20:14.4> and this is the realisation we have to come to and this is the realisation that we all will have which we all will have, which we must have. Then some purpose is achieved, then this movement is worthwhile and I know that this can be done, I know the future step by step for hundreds and hundreds and thousands of years to come if I say these things or else I would not be wasting my time here now or doing the work I'm doing. I know what the world is heading for, what can be done. I know how people’s hearts can be opened, how the minds could be expanded and how the whole tone could be elevated towards greater joy and greater beauty and less suffering. We know, we know these things but cooperation is required and no hope is ever to be lost. No hope, because the path of realisation is not easy. Do not let anyone promise you miracles to say ah overnight, you have god realisation. There is no such thing, yes, you have the spark that is within you, what the guru or the good teacher does, he fans it very gently, very smoothly with love, with wisdom, he fans that spark until you, the chela, become consumed by it. That little spark is fanned until it bec omes a great big fire and you're consumed in wisdom and in love. So then the guru's wisdom and love becomes your wisdom and love. You become identified with the love and wisdom of the guru and then there's no separation. Then you

6. SA76-18 don’t say I possess my guru, you say I am my guru. You see, that's how we develop. That is how we develop, that is how difference is ceased. Now the goal of life is the identification of man with god. The end and aim of life is the identification of man with god. God being abstract, let us forget it for the moment, let us find that which is concrete here and now. Let us identify ourselves with one and then you will see automatically through the one you're identified with the whole universe and after identification with the entire universe, you even go beyond it and then observe the little play. So when the guru sees the jealousies and squabbles and pettiness’s of the chelas, he enjoys himself and has a good laugh (laughs). That's what I do , oh yes (laughs) yes, some evenings I'm sitting and alone to myself doing some initiations from the various forms that has come from overseas and I say oh that was really beautiful, wasn’t that so nice? The little child was playing so lovely. Everything is lovely. Even the possessiveness or pettiness of the children is lovely to the father. Even the little naughtiness of your child is lovely to you, always is – always is, because the true guru does not regard anyone apart from him, everyone is his own flesh and blood. He cares, he loves, he advises, he guides, he kisses, hugs, pats, spanks the works. That is the purpose and that is my Christmas message to you. Okay? (Laughs) Public: How do you < 0:24:15.6 > (Laughs) Gururaj: Good, who is next? Public: Gururaj, < 0:24:23.2 > nothing is what it appears to be. Gururaj: Yes. Public: Can you please explain this? Gururaj: Yeah, Shankara says that the whole world is an illusion and nothing is real, it is a dream. Good. Now that is from the advaitic philosophy – advaitism. In other words, monism which regards that everything to be just a reality. Everything is an unreality and only divinity is the true reality. Fine. Now that is very well and very – very true, but from what angle is it true? It is true from the standpoint of Shankara who had reached self realisation – who had reached self-realisation and knowing infinity, to him there was nothing finite. Having become one with infinity, there was nothing finite because even in the finiteness of life, he saw infinity and once – and once you have such great beauty, then the little beauties disappear,

7. SA76-18 little beauties disappear because they disappear not in annihilation, little beauties are not annihilated but they merge away into the greater beauty. So when we talk of Shankara, we must know the meaning of discrimination to be able to discriminate between what is reality and what is unreality and through proper and complete discrimination only comes when we reach the stage to Shankara. Because of this philosophy of maya, I have said this before, more harm has bee n done than good. Maya, the belief of maya by the one who has not reached a high stage of evolution can be very harmful. They become predeterministic, they become fatalistic. I have seen families that has 12 children, very poor, they can hardly feed two, but they have 12, but that belief of maya is so ingrained in them. Then I asked, “Why so many children you can't – why have 12 when you can’t even feed two? Never mind two, you can't even feed yourself.” Then they said, “It is the work of god.” I say, “work of god? Did you sleep in separate bedrooms?” (Laughs). God works in mysterious ways, fine, but you too have to work in less mysterious ways. Good. Now what had to happen had to happen, it was ordained, it was predetermined that I must have 12 children. You see, there comes into play free will and divine will which we had discussed so many times before. Good. Now it is very good as idealistic philosophy to acknowledge and to understand the principles of advaitism or monism where everything else, all existence is a dream and the only reality is the lord, that is very true, but if your wife and children are hungry at home, can we call that unreal? If you have a headache or a toe ache , can you call that unreal? So it is only when we transcend or go beyond relativity, that we can call relativity and real. While you are dreaming, that dream is completely real to us, while we are dreaming it is only when we wake up that we look back and say, “oh, what a lovely dream,” good dream or bad dream. Then only the realisation dawns that all these possessiveness that we had, all these me and mine, all these pettiness was only a dream. Why did I stick to that dream? How could’ve – could I have been so foolish to have stuck to such a dream? But that comes when we become realised. So shankara is not to be discouraged, advaitism is not to be discarded and non- advaitism or non-monism is not to be discarded either. While we are still enmeshed in relativity, we must look at all relativity to be real too and only when we transcend, only when we go beyond the relativity, then we will realise that that all was just a dream, now I know the essence because I am the essence, and the essence is real, not the manifestation. The manifestor is real and not the manifestation. Then you be – when you become the fire, you do not worry about the heat., but until you have not become the fire itself, then you must be conscious and aware of the heat around you and not discard it as just maya, just uselessness, just dreaming. So this is not contradictory. Non-dualism and dualism is not contradictory as most people believe, as many teachers teach, but one is the extension of the other, one is the extension of the other that when one passes beyond dualism, when one passes beyond dualism, then there is non-dualism, but it is not contradictory, its a stage. We pass these stages from

8. SA76-18 dualism to non-dualism, from separation to oneness. That is the stage we pass through and that is the truth, the truth. We find this in the bible, Christ said the same thing, Christ said to the flock that pray to thy father in heaven, dualism. Father in heaven and you here, separate dualism and then to his closest ones he said, “I and my father are one,” non-dualism. So this is illustrated very well in the bible as well and of course in various ancient philosophies, various ancient philosophies. So while we are still enmeshed in relativity, we can accept the principle of non-dualism that everything is a dream and there's only one reality. We can accept that principle, but remember that’s an intellectual principle, it is a principle which is analysed by the mind, the intellect will accept it that yes, the intellect analyses it, that is intellectualising, but what we do practically, practically in the world today until we reach that stage of realisation, we have to accept the separateness, we have to accept the separateness until we progress and go beyond the separation. We have to accept the reality of relativity, that is what I'm trying to say that even relativity is real because we are enmeshed in it, we are part and parcel of the relativity. Now intellectualising about the unrealness of the universe -- intellectualising about the unrealness of the universe cannot get us anywhere, it is only intellectualising, what we want is realis in g, not intellectualising, but realising, because the mind too is so finite and that principle when everything becomes a dream, everything becomes maya is when we have reached infinity, when we have become one with the infinite until we are still finite, then all that around us that is finite we accept and it is because of dualistic philosophies, it is because of this dualism that all these ethical and moral laws are there, made not only to stabilise society, but also for our personal evolution. Now if everything is regarded as maya, then there's nothing wrong for you to go and kill, murder, pillage, rape, unfaithfulness, insincerities, infidelities, nothing wrong in that then if it is just all maya, yes, but it is real here because we are in the relative. There's a lovely story where a priest was called to perform a ceremony. Good. Now priesthood in – in – in most countries, in all countries is a profession and a profession necessarily one is paid for doing one’s work in one’s profession but this priest had some pretentions of being an intellectual. So after performing the ceremony, he gave a long talk on the futility of existence that all these existence, all these that we possess is of no worth, no value. What he was trying to do was this, he was using a psychological trick that all this you are possessing is of no use to you so pay me bigger fees (laughs) yes, right. So the – the – the host at whose place this ypjana was performed, he was a brilliant man. The priest said that there's no reality, it is all unreal, right. So when it came for the time for payment, the – the host filled up little bag, those times, little purses, he filled it with stones and gave it (laughs) and he gave it. The priest opens this and he says, “What is this? Stones?” “But you just said maharajji that this money is unreal, then if that is unreal, this too is unreal, I am unreal and you are unreal and you have performed no ceremony (laughs). Yes – yes, so to come back to James’ beautiful – beautiful question that Shankara’s ideology is to be accepted, it is a wonderful ideal but while we are living in this world, we must love our brother as ourselves, we must obey all the moral injunctions of whichever religion,

9. SA76-18 Hinduism, Christianity, 10 commandments whatever, they're all good, they're all very good. We have to obey them, we have to respect and love another. We have to love and respect another which means duality. Right, until one day we reach the non-dualistic state of shankara. He’ll say that “I don’t need to love you, I am you. I don’t need to love myself, I am love.” That’s the stage we aspire to and that’s the stage we want to reach. Thank you, lovely question. Public: What did Christ mean when he said < 0:38:02.0 > none shall find salvation except through me? Gururaj: Ah yes, none shall find salvation except through me. Good. Now Jesus never said that, but Christ said it. The difference (laughs) the difference I am trying to point out is this that not the man, but the spirit. Good. Not the man limited, embodied limited man, but the eternal spirit that is him and when Christ says none shall reach god except through me, it is very -- very true because we have to reach, all of us, that stage of Christhood before we too can become one with our father. So that was very good, very true. Public: Guruji, isn’t that similar to your relationship between chela and guru? Gururaj: It's similar, could be regarded as similar. It must be regarded according to -- Public: < 0:39:12.5 > Gururaj: True – true. Public: Act as a medium, we can’t get -- Gururaj: This – this is – this is the concept as you said, it’s the same relationship between guru and chela and this concept is fostered and encouraged and taught by ancient sages and sears in India in vedic times and even today, even today. Mind you, th is is not necessarily acceptable in the western way of life and this injunction is never forced upon anyone, is never forced upon anyone and the person must slowly by himself come to such realisations. In India if you go, each and every one, the smallest child will tell you that god and guru is one. They’ll tell you that, in India, as you must have heard a million times. Yeah, in the west we can't say that. In the west values are different, knowledge is different, but what we want is this that the chela must recognise and – and – and appreciate the teachings, the wisdom and find the guidance and benefit by it. For the moment that's good enough.

10. SA76-18 Public: Guruji, when you say a mistake is < 0 :40:30.0 > I've been thinking that the body that was Christ rather th an the spirit that reside in the body. When he says < 0:40:35.7 > it’s the spirit of god that resides -- Gururaj: Oh yes. Public: -- in the body. Gururaj: Yes, yes. Public: And therefore the same spirit was in < 0:40:42.7 > its the same spirit through whi ch we cannot get further. Gururaj: Further, true. Very true, oh yes, same – same – same -- Public: < 0:40:51.7 > everything is so emphasised as the body that we forget that it’s the spirit that we have < 0:41:00.2 > Gururaj: Spirit we have to get, yes. I agree with you. I agree it’s the spirit and if we still go into far deeper levels of this, then you’d even see the spirit permeating in the body, yes. But that comes at a very high state of evolution where even the body is regarded as the spirit and there's no difference between spirit and body. Public: But it's come to a very high < 0:41:30.6 > Gururaj: Ver y high, yes, yeah (laughs) yes – yes, it’s a very high < 0:41:35.2 > yes, fine. Anyone else? Public: < 0:41:42.1 > Gururaj: That is Taoism. These details you know you could find from books. Public: < 0:41:52.1 >

11. SA76-18 Gururaj: Yeah, yeah no, it’d be better that way. I’ll tell you why. I've reasons for saying this – umm – now to give a discourse on Taoism, in other words to explain you what Yin and Yang means, I’d have to explain you all the principles of Taoism which any person can find in a book on Taoism. Fine. What we always try to achieve is not to acquire knowledge, but to acquire wisdom. Now I have explained many times the difference between knowledge that is acquired and – and knowledge which is wisdom, like I have a very very sincere chela, somebody so wonderful, but I'm not so much who says –he says – he says, “Bapuji, I'm like a donkey with a whole load of books on my back but I have not realised anything yet.” What we are after here is wisdom. So if you read a book on Taoism, right. And you find a point there which cannot be understood, then ask on that point and – and ask that now this is said this way, what does it mean? Like your previous question. It is very beautiful. Now what would this mean? What would it imply? How could it be related to me and that or that and that? Okay? And then the wisdom comes out. The – what – what we try and impart is not encyclopaedic knowledge because these definitions can be found in any encyclopaedia or books, libraries, things like that, but the gist, the essence that we can't understand and the question is only ready. The question is only ready when he studies something and finds that something which he cannot understand. That shows the questioner’s readiness. That shows the true desire of wanting to gain not knowledge, but wisdom. Public: Guruji, isn’t that the same as the Gita says, be free of the law of opposites? Gururaj: Yes, true – true. Yes, yeah Yin and Yang becomes one. Yin and yang becomes one. Yin and Yang, to put it very simply represents -- Public: < 0:44:14.3 > opposite one, you live in the opposite, you can't -- Gururaj: True – true. Public: Get through to the realisation. Gururaj: Oh yes, yes. Yin and Yang represents the relative and the absolute and how they could be combined together in one complete whole. Therefore it is in a round circle. That's all. But do – do read our points very interesting reading, reading matter, interesting reading matter and then come up with some finer points of it, we go deeply into that. We try and draw some wisdom from the universe (laughs). Yes, yes beautiful.

12. SA76-18 Public: < 0:44:48.2 > Gururaj: Umm— I have, how I – how you can help me to spread the message. Public: < 0:45:02.5 > Gururaj: Yeah, yeah. Now this question has been asked me many times. With our counsellors there too, they told me we find such a great joy working for you, doing the work, they're running these various centres all over. I said you do not work for me, you work for yourselves, you do not help me, you help yourself and that is exactly what you are doing. You are propagating a truth and by the propagation of that truth, you come to realise greater and greater depths of that truth. So who are you helping? Not the teacher, you are helping yourself and you're helping your classmates that are within the world. The teacher, he does not need help, he does not need to achieve for he has achieved, he does not. You require achieving. You require self realisation. You require self integration. So by doing this kind of work, you are helping yourself to achieve self realisation because this is also one of the ways. This is also one of the ways to find self-realisation. So all these yogas culminate on that point. Learn, study and teach. In that way it is not a movement or the guru that is helped. Really speaking in its essence but the person himself doing the work is helping himself by gaining greater and greater understanding and that is why the bible says, “go out and preach the word.” Does God need preaching? No, he does not need to be preached about. He does not help God, but it helps man himself by speaking of – of the word of god, he comes to know God more, this is also a way, also a way. So a person always helps himself while helping others. A person always helps himself while helping others. If you have found at a supermarket the price of sugar has gone down by 10 cents, good. You would very gladly tell your neighbours that go to that super market, the sugar is less 10 cents per packet because you have love in you, you have love in you and you'd like to see your neighbour benefit by 10 cents. Good. You'd like to see your neighbour benefit by 10cents. So what you are doing now is you are putting that love within you fo r your neighbour into practice and by putting that which you find would be beneficial to someone else, by putting it into practice, you will know the greater value of love and then the love that might have been possessive becomes unpossessive and unselfish. A million pounds of theory is not even worth one ounce of practice. We always say that. So who are you helping there? You are helping yourself by demonstrating in practical life, unslefishness and love. It was not necessary for you to tell your neighbour that the packet of sugar is 10 cents less at that supermarket. It was not necessary, it was not even expected of you from your neighbour to give this news, but you did it so that your neighbour can benefit. Its an act of love, its an act of charity. It’s an act of

13. SA76-18 sincerity, It’s an act of givingness. It’s an act of unselfishness. How much have you not gained by demonstrating true religion in practical life? So who helps who? Since when or from when so chelas help gurus? It is always the other way around. What do you do if you have developed true chela relationship is to teach the guru's words and by teaching the guru's words and his wisdom, you become more firmly established in that wisdom and that is the process of identification between chela and guru. That is also a way to self realisation. To the concrete, from the concrete to the abstract, the absolute. From the relative to the absolute. From the separation to the oneness. So when we do something, when we propagate truth, we must nver say to ourselves in our minds and in our hearts that I am helping, immediately you say that you are displaying selfishness, I am helping, I the ego, great ego, who am I? Immediately ask yourself who am I that's to help divinity? Your ego is immediately subdued there. So wh atever we can do, whatever we can do is a great help to ourselves and are we also not our brother’s keeper? Love thy neighbour as thyself? Yes, this is how it is demonstrated and that is why we do these things. That is why we become unselfish and this is the way towards unselfishness. Okay? (Laughs) So all is done, all is done for our own evolution, all is done for our own evolution. we do not need to help god. God does not need our help, we need his and by knowing of his principles, knowing the principles of divinity and practicing them by actively helping others towards those principles, we are helping ourselves. So this is the way in which god helps us. God does not need help from us, but we need his help and in this way we draw his help to us. We draw his grace. This is what grace means. Everyone says oh give me grace, give me grace, give me grace, it is there (laughs) yeah. It is there. Even Deepa says that too (laughs). Give me grace, yes. Grace is there but what have we done to get the grace? What have we done to get the grace? So if we can do whatever in our power to propagate, to spread that love and wisdom, to all corners of the world, we are helping ourselves and we are drawing unto ourselves divine grace. We’re opening the – the door for it, just to flood it, yes, floods in – floods in and when we give one, we always get ten in return. That law is undisputable, we get back ten in return in some way or the other always – always unfailingly – unfailingly. Okay? (Laughs) good, anyone else? We still gotta wait for the noon gun before we make tea (laughs). Public: Bapuji, question about waking, dreaming and sleeping. Is it – is there necessarily a hierarchy indicated by the states? Are you necessarily more aware say in this waking state then you would be in dreaming? Is it possible – is it possible to be --- Gururaj: Waking, dreaming and sleeping, it’s not a matter of hierarchy where one is more aware in one state then the other. What it actually means is this that you're operating on different levels. It's not a matter of which is a higher state. It's

14. SA76-18 not a matter of – of one's state being lower and the other state being higher. But you, when you're dreaming, you're operating on a different plain, and when you're waking, you're operating on a different plain, yes, that’s all which it is really, nothing is higher and nothing is lower. Public:< 0:55:16.4 > Gururaj: I see you're reading a book on it, yes read it and we will go deeper into it. Public: (Laughs) < 0:55:21.9 > Gururaj: Because when you read a book, when you read a book – umm – I used to know an old lady – umm- -and I used to speak to her, I was a young boy, then she would say certain things to me and, an illiterate woman, but she was very fond of asking little boys to read to her and she used to give some sweets. She had this thirst for knowledge. This old woman had this beautiful thirst for knowledge, but unfortunately, she was not sent to school and she could not read or write. I'm referring to someone in India, fine. So in order to gain some knowledge, she -- when she made some – some nice sweet meals in her house for family, she used to keep some aside and when a school child passed, there’s a school nearby and the children has to pass her home, so she used to call this one today, that one tomorrow and say will you please come this afternoon or this evening and read a little for me? And the children would gladly go to her because they knew that they were gonna get mithai, sweets. (laughs) yeah. Right. So one day in speaking to this old woman – umm – she told me about – I went to read for her that particular day, right, because I knew I was gonna get sweets (laughs) yeah, so she told me something, then I say, “Maji,” it means mother, I say, “Maji, I don’t agree with this,” so she says to me, “but it is written in that book, in such and such a book. Right. And she had the implicit faith and belief that whatever is written in a book is true. She had that faith. If something is written in a book, then it is true, otherwise its not true, an illiterate woman, but a very wonderful, loving woman. So likewise, when we read the book on dreaming, good, by all means, but remember it is the opinion of one man. So after reading the book, then we analyse it, right, then we analyse it and see how far that man's thought went and how further more our thoughts can go because sometimes the power of analysis exceeds the power of the particular contention. The power of analysis can exceed that which has been put forth, the injunction. Good. And that is how we learn, that is how we get acquired knowledge. We can also have lot of books on the back.

15. SA76-18 Public: I wasn’t thinking that much of – I haven’t read the book yet, I have still to read it so that's why I'm introducing the topic, but I know that it’s possible to have an experience in the dreaming state which could be very much more beautiful than the waking and it could also seem very – very real as much as being here could seem real. Gururaj: Yes, now that too – that too is a contradiction of terms that in the dream state, a experience is more beautiful than an experience in the waking state or less beautiful. It is a contradiction in the sense that we are not evaluating, we are not evaluating the – the beauty or the incident on the basis of the incident itself. We are evaluating it from a different stance altogether whereby we have extricated ourselves from the waking experience and the dreaming experience and we are evaluating that and judging it. Now that is very good, that is also the process of analysis. That is very good, but then we also have to acknowledge or recognise that's the word, recognise our limitations that is my assessment, correct or incorrect. Now was that experience in the dream state really better than the experience in the waking state? Was it really beautiful? Good. Now if we reach a stage of spiritual development, whereby we develop the ability to live in the moment. Then all comparisons cease because by living in the moment, whatever the experience, it has to be beautiful. You find ugliness and beauty only because – only because you are comparing and when one reaches the state where there's nothing to compare with, then contradiction cease, law of opposites ceases. So these things must be very deeply <1:01:05.1> the noon gun went. Public: (Laughs) just one question guruji. Gururaj: Yes. Public: In meditation which would achieve the most that in which you just sit quietly, allow your mind to be < 1:01:17.6 > or where you consciously concentrate? Gururaj: In meditation in which would one receive the most where one sits quietly or where one concentrates? Now I will tell you this that you will achieve the most in the particular practice given to you. Public: < 1:01:37.4 > to --- to understanding? Gururaj: Not necessarily < 1:01:43.3 > not necessarily, b ecause a concentrative practice might be good for one and – and – and practices that requires no concentration might be good for others. So therefore we always say that we must not

16. SA76-18 have one practice for everyone in the world. Everyone is individual, so the practice best for me is that given to me by my guru, always. Public: You see sometimes you won't be worried about a thing and at a moment when your mind < 1:02:15.4 >something like a flash, your answer comes to you. Gururaj: Oh yes, beautiful, beautiful. Public: That’s why I was asking that question. Gururaj: Yes, yeah. Public: < 1:02:24.6 > Gururaj: True – true. Now this – this applies, it’s a very individual matter. It's a very individual matter and one method could get one further, while another method could get another further. So we cannot lay down a general law. One cannot lay down. But one thing is very true that to get the answer you want, one must reach that stage of that silence, yes – yes and that stage could be reached by one through going into certain methods where the silent dawns upon one and the other method whereby you create the silence. There are other methods whereby you – you have a tug of war with silence and noise. Now it depends entirely upon the person, individually what is needed for that particular person. One person might need a tug of war, good. One person might need pulling, another person might need pushing, another person might need it just dawning on him like the early morning dew on the grass and some person might need a down pour (laughs) yes – yes. So – so – so therefore (Laughs) Public: < 1:03:57.0 > Gururaj: So therefore individual practices. So I would say again the best practice for a person is the one given to one by one's guru always – always. He – he knows his job and he wouldn’t give you headache medicine for toe ache, no (laughs). Public: Can we give to you our Christmas wish to you guruji?

17. SA76-18 Gururaj: Yes. Public: < 1:04:20.0 > Gururaj: Thank you.

1. SA76-18 Satsang 18, 18 th of December, 1976, Satsang 18 Gururaj: Who’d like to start us off with a question today? Public: < 0:00:11.6 > question. Gururaj: Oh (laughs) Public: In visiting various ashrams in India, I have found there is an inclination in many of them, just like Christ with his disciples had one little Judas Iscariot. So in many ashrams <0:00:35.6> sometimes their love become so possessive or so jealous that they <0:00:42.0>new comers away. Now is there a test to the newcomer? <0:00:47.6> disciple, how does the guru correct <0:00:53.2 > Gururaj: True. Public: What exactly is the situation as it goes around between the < 0:01:03.7 > the one who is perhaps unconsciously converted his love into possessive love? Gururaj: True. Public: How is the positi on< 0:01:12.0 > Gururaj: Now this is a very true observation of yours and Mrs. < 0:01:19.7 > you have travelled through to many ashrams in India, you have seen this. Good. The exist – the – the primary purpose or the primary essence of a guru chela relationsh ip is based on love as we said, which is very true and very correct. Now what happens when a chela comes to the guru? The guru is not always obliged to accept the chela. There are many times and more times, more often than not where the chela is immediatel y rejected and the guru says, “Sorry, I cannot accept it,” because the guru can judge and estimate the qualities that are inherent in the chela. Now this was the ancient Aryan vedic system which existed thousands of years ago. In the modern age – in the mo dern age times are different. In those times in India, especially and specifically, there were many – many ashrams and people were more spiritually inclined. So therefore there was a greater abundance of spiritual teachers and preceptors . Today the positio n has changed as far as that they are not as many ashrams as they