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1. SA77- 33 Satsang 33 Gururaj: Good who will start us off this morning with questions? Public: May I ask? Gururaj: Please do. Public: Umm -- with the investigation into the sub - systems of the atom < 0:00:20.1 > it is discovered that a very active observation impact ed that which was been observed and therefore it is not possible to measure its precise position. This leads to the concept of uncertainty which not only define the < 0:00:34.9 > but also established the boundary on the extent of human knowledge. I would the refore like to ask the question the French philosopher Descartes asks himself, “Where of am I certain?” Gururaj: Good, now firstly you quoted a passage from science and various scientific enquires and up to now, as we all know that science has not fathome d the depth of the atom. In other words, science is at a stage where there -- they have been limited as boundaries as you're saying. What is the atom? Good. What did Descartes ask? Public: Where of am I certain? Gururaj: Where of am I certain? Good. Where of am I certain would naturally reflect the uncertainty of modern day science because science too is not certain. Good. Let us discuss the atom first and then we’ll go down to examine what Descartes is trying to say. Good. The only time when man will find the answer to the atom or what constitutes the atom will be when they can reach to its finest level. Good. Now the atom, as we would know is matter, good. It might be a more subtle matter than that which is perceptible by the ordinary five senses and so they would use various kinds of instruments whereby the atom can be seen and the nucleus of the atom can be seen and the -- the molecules or whatever they are called, electrons that swirl around the nucleus. Good, that is what science knows about the atom. What science does not know is that what is the power that keeps this atom together? What is this power? What is the nucleus around which other substances rotate? Good. The atom, it has been found -- the rotation within the atom has been found to operate very -- very systematically -- very -- very precisely. Now what causes this precision? What law is there that makes the atom perform its function? Good. That science cannot discover because it is beyond all measurement and science will always

3. SA77- 33 has to go beyond and that is why science could never capture in their test-tubes that law because the instruments of science are also substance and substance can only measure substance. Good. Now when Descartes says “What is there of which I can be certain?” Descartes asks that question to himself and he couldn’t answer it. Am I right? He couldn’t answer that. The answer is very simple actually, it is very simple and in the simplicity, there is profound truth. What is there of which I can be certain? I can be certain of myself -- I can be certain of myself. How can I be certain of myself? Why should I be certain of myself? Why? Wherefore? How? All these questions are closely associated. Now when I say, “I can be certain of myself,” naturally I would be referring to the real I within me and not the assumed I which is nothing but ego, good. Now the ego has uncertainty as all matter has uncertainty because it is not a constant factor, it is forever changing and because its nature is change, it cannot be certain. It is only the constant principle, the unchanging principle of which man can be certain because today there is one substance, the same substance, although it be indestructible, will invariably change, transform itself into another substance. If we destroy this ta ble, if we burn up this table, the original elements of the table will disintegrate, not destroyed but disintegrate into its original elements. In other words, gross matter will become fine matter and when the table is burnt up, it becomes ether which is also matter and from ether, it can still go into a finer matter which is vibration. So the essence of the table is not destroyed, the form is destroyed. Good. Likewise -- likewise, so what we have seen now that everything that is perceptible by our five senses is subject to change and any factor which is continually changing does not give us certainty. So where can we find Descartes ' certainty is within ourselves the real I and the real I that is within ourselves is the same law, same principle that is within the atom. So when through our meditations and spiritual practices we go beyond matter, then we know what is certain and that is also achieved, attained and known experientially. Descartes searched on the surface and he saw the < 0:15:10.8 > waves . If he h ad to dive deeper, he would’ve seen the calm, the real nature of the ocean deep down. So on all surface things, on anything on its surface value will forever change -- will forever change, but by going deeper within ourselves, we will find the constant fac tor and by finding the constant factor, then we will be able to evaluate the value of change. Then we would be able to take the constant factor and imbue the non - constant with it and then even in that which is changing, by imbuing it with the constant fact or, we recognise how transitory change is. The trouble with the world is because they observe only the change and because they observe only the change, they cannot be certain of it and that is where all troubles begin , uncertainty. Uncertainty is the blood brother of all kinds of negativity. Uncertainty is opposed to trust. Uncertainty brings mistrust, uncertainty brings insecurity , uncertainty brings inadequacy . So it is because of the uncertainty of Descartes that all problems in life begin and how much y ou search on surface value to find certainty, you will not find it because surface values are forever

4. SA77- 33 changing, it is only when we find the constant factor, the unchanging factor amidst the change, then the certainty develops in us and how can we find the -- the unchanging factor in everything is by finding the unchanging factor within us first. When we find that and the identification takes place, then life becomes happy because we are seeing the unchanging in everything and which in very simple language means to see God in everything, that is certain, that is certainty because then all insecurities disappear, all inadequacies disappear, yes, that is how it works. Okay Vijay? Good, fine. Public: < 0:18:54.3 > Now I have seen < 0:19:16.9 > you just touch and th ey're transformed < 0:19:21.6 > I have seen people who do practices for many -- many -- many -- many years and they do not obviously see any change < 0:19:31.7 > just goes on existing, they are still involved in < 0:19:37.5 > and it seems as if they do not < 0:1 9:42.7 > that's existing in them, can you explain < 0:19:48.5 > Gururaj: Yes -- yes -- yes. There are some people who by our touch are transformed. Now there is no miracle there, it is just using natural laws, activating natural laws, but for that the chela too has to be ready. If the candle and the match are ready, it is very easy, quick, a second to light the candle, to flick the match, so a great readiness is required in the chela. How does one bring about the readiness in the chela? It is by bringing about understanding in the chela. When understanding develops and this is the pu rpose of these -- these courses -- when that understanding develops, a greater yearning develops in the chela. When the greater yearning develops, sincerity develops and they become true seekers and not curiosity mongers. When the field is well tilled, the seed grows well -- grows well, yes. So there is a great part that has to be played by the chela. What does he do? He develops understanding. Understanding will bring in him a yearning and sincerity, a sincere yearning, Good. Up to now, intellectually he knows of certainty, but intellectual knowing is very superficial -- intellectual knowing is very superficial, intellectually you know that a block of ice is cold, intellectually you know sugar is sweet but what value is there in just knowing about it? One must realise it. One must realise sugar is sweet and ice is cold. How does one realise that? By practice, living a practical life, taste the sugar then you really know sugar is sweet . You’ve realised by experience sugar is sweet, block of ice, touch it and feel the cold, then you have experienced the coldness of the block of ice. So intellectual knowledge is not sufficient. Realisation of the object, that is of value, enduring value, everlasting value, unforgettable value that sugar is sweet and ice is cold, yet intellectualising something plays its part, it is not to be discarded as long as we don’t just get stuck there. We get stuck there intellectually, then there is no progress. To know something intellectually and to understand something are two different things. Understanding something, he does not come with knowledge of something, understanding something comes with wisdom. There is the difference

6. SA77- 33 discovered and more doctors are born into the world or made doctors, more diseases have come about, Yeah. Diseases that never existed a hundred years ago are so prevalent today so they find an antidote or a cure for TB, right -- right they find that, but then another disease arise from that. Science gives you aromasin for example, a drug, right! And then the system develops resistance to aromasin so then they have to invent streptomisin and when the system develops resistance to streptomisin, then they got to -- then they had to invent another one, cortisone and like that it goes on and on an d no purpose has been achieved. Science has discovered the motor car, beautiful and it has made us so -- so lazy, yes. It’s a pity they have not built drive- in toilets yet (laughs). Look at out fathers or grandfathers, our fathers and grandfathers they were so -- so healthy. For them to walk two miles was nothing, round the corner, lets go into the country side and you ask someone for a direction, right and the person will say “oh sir, just round the corner” <0:32:37.6> and then you drive and you’ve find you’ve driven that 20 miles that <0:32:44.2> round the corner, yeah, okay? Right, that is what science has done in the past. There have been some good uses too, oh yes. Man has developed intellectually and they have become intellectual morons so these discoveries have been misused and abused. Now those very scientists and the people that control these inventions, if they were all meditators, and had expanded their hearts as well, then there'd be no abuse. When the core of the human personality is developed, the heart unfolded, then one ceases to abuse things, then one uses them in the right way -- one uses them in the right way, fine. Now that is what science has done in the past, what will science do in the future? Good. They’ve reached the moon, they’ve spent, I don’t know how many billion, 2,000 billion in building the rocket ship to land on the moon and that is supposed to be an achievement, yet thousands of people in the world ha ven’t got a piece of bread, they’re dying with hunger, would that money not have been more useful? Usefully spent in feeding those poor? They’ve reached the moon, they’ll build other rockets now that will cost 4,000 billion to reach Mars. They will reach M ars but they’ll forget all the ma’s and pa’s that are suffering here (laughs), that is what science is doing. Good, let them have discoveries -- let them have discoveries but what we can pray for and wish for that may those discoveries be fruitfully used, used in a good way, then they are worthwhile. With the external search of science let the internal search be combined, then they will automatically put their discoveries to good use. Okay? (Laughs) Public: Guruji, I just saw a film on campus the other day w hich showed children in a < 0:35:51.8 > all the time and they just beat themselves the whole day, I don’t understand how people like that can exist and why they should be allowed to exist and how -- how they are -- the y are people like that < 0:36:07.2 > ?

7. SA77- 33 Gururaj: Yes -- yes -- oh yes, there would be -- there would be those illnesses. What has produced those illnesses in the child? Small innocent children that become mentally deranged, that also thanks to science -- that also thanks to science because when a child is mentally deranged, neurotic, there is a law of inheritance. The mother and father of the child, the man and woman that produce the child, there was some disturbance in the mixing of the genes. What cause that disturbance? The mother and father were unbalanced, perhaps not certifiable to be sent to an asylum, but they were unbalanced and the combination of those genes that produce the child, sick genes will produce a sick child. Good. That -- now what has made -- what has made the mother and father unbalanced? Also science, yes, because science insists on external search -- science insists on materialism, perhaps the trouble of the mother and father could go further back to the grandfather and grandmother, it’s a vicious circle that goes on, yes. Does the Bible not say that the sins of the parents will be felt to the seventh generation? Something like that. Public: < 0:38:22.9 > Gururaj: Four. Public: Third and fourth. Gururaj: Third and fourth generation. So there is a hereditary factor there -- there is a hereditary factor. Now if the parent s had developed or had started searching within through meditational practices, the child might have not been born deformed, that of course is looking at it from a surface value, there are other factors involved, karmic factors which is of course a different field altogether. Okay? Fine! Public: Guruji, all the mechanical food they are feeding even in the vegetable garnish today instead of the old natural system, doesn’t that also produce an effect on us? Gururaj: Oh yes, oh yes all these artificial methods must produce an effect. The other day I read that even food, potatoes are going to be -- are going to be put through a certain process of e-radiation or something whereby the food will last a longer time . No w all these artificial methods must naturally take away the naturalness of food and then we complain of being unhealthy. There's more disease today and -- and -- and -- and bad health in the world then there was a hundred years ago, we all know that. So -- so as far as possible, if we can eat food which is wholesome and not artificially

8. SA77- 33 produced or artificially treated, it would be better for us, definitely better for us but then I have seen people that would want real organic food and on the other hand, they -- they take all kinds of drugs so no purpose is achieved by that. Public: < 0:40:56.1 > Gururaj: Nature takes his course -- nature takes his course and nature will always preserve a balance -- always preserve a balance and to preserve the balance by killing people off like in wars, yes. It’s not for man. If there is an imbalance, then famines will arise, droughts will come, floods will come, earthquakes will come, nature will always preserve a balance and people say this world is over populated, it is not over populated, it can still, this world can still, certain countries are overpopulated. Look at our South Africa for example, it can accommodate an other 100 million people easily. If you take a ride out of town, its just fields and fields and fields, empty, barren, nothing done about it. This world can still take a lot, oh plenty -- plenty. Certain areas of the world are overpopulated, but it is not generally so, it is not and people talk about scarcity of food and -- and they want to produce artificial food, it is not necessary when we have all these millions and millions of acres lying unused, we just have to take little drive out of town and we see that so its not -- the -- the argument which some people put forward is not valid, its not valid at all, good. And when the world would be unable to take more people, then there are other planets that are very similar to this world and the law of nature will see that you're transported there even before you're born (laughs). Yes, good fine. Public: What are your views on reincarnation < 0:43:29.2 > ? Gururaj: Views on reincarnation? I gave a very long talk on reincarnation not -- just a few weeks ago, so if you would speak to Kiran here or Vijay, they could let you hear the tape on reincarnation because it would just be a matter of repetition. Public: Yes. Gururaj: And what happens, these tapes that are made are not only for our people here, but they get posted all around the world to all our various centres and there they always want to hear every week something new (laughs) so please arrange with them to listen to a tape. Okay, good.

9. SA77- 33 Public: Gururaj would you -- would you talk about the pursuit of an ideal in practical life and what is the balance between the two? Gururaj: The pursuit of an ideal in practical life. Now tell me what is the ideal, then we will show you how to live it or pursue it practically. Public: In spiritual life < 0:44:36.8 > or any particular ideal with one < 0:44:45.0 > Gururaj: Yes, fine. Now the ideal of enlightenment is of course the most noblest ideal -- the ideal of enlightenment is of course the most noblest one, good. Now to pursue that ideal -- to pursue that ideal, one must first analyse the ideal. It could be any ideal but the ideal requires analysis. Now the purpose of analysing the ideal would be this that we understand the ideal intellectually for the beginning. We understand the ideal and by gaining and understanding of the ideal, we will know the validity of the ideal. Why do you want to know the validity of the ideal is that we don’t want to waste time or chase the rainbow because an ideal can also be a misconception, a misconceived ideal, so when we intellectually understand the validity of the ideal, then pursuing it -- ideal of enlightenment is of course the most noblest ideal -- the ideal of enlightenment is of course the most noblest one, good. Now to pursue that ideal -- to pursue that ideal, one must first analyse the ideal. It could be any ideal but the ideal requires analysis. Now the purpose of analysing the ideal would be this that we understand the ideal intellectually for the beginning. We understand the ideal and by gaining and understanding of the ideal, we will know the validity of the ideal. Why do you want to know the validity of the ideal is that we don’t want to waste time or chase the rainbow because an ideal can also be a misconception, a misconceived ideal, so when we intellectually understand the validity of the ideal, then pursuing it will have greater force, it will develop a greater enthusiasm in us and as we pursue the ideal on the path, we would feel more and more encouraged because we know -- because we know that the ideal is valid. Good. Now if the ideal is enlightenment which is a valid ideal, right, and we analyse the enlightenment. What will enlightenment do for us? Good. Fine! Enlightenment will integrate our entire personali ty , mind, body and soul will act as one. Good, will act in harmony; harmony brings about stability, stability brings about dynamic action. When mind, body and soul acts as one, there is no conflict and when conflict i s eradicated, then joy develops, happiness develops, bliss develops. Good. So when we analyse enlightenment or oneness at one minute with everything, we know what it will do for us. It will make us experience joy and bliss and all our problems are over, no problems exists for us anymore. Good. So now having gained an intellectual understanding of enlightenment, we will have greater force, greater power in pursuing it, reaching the ideal,

10. SA77- 33 attaining the ideal. Fine. Second step would be how do we do it? Right! This is what I want and how do I get there? Now if my mind, an intellect, fails to tell me how I get there, then I go to a person who has reached that ideal and ask him. I go to a person who has travelled on the road to go to Simon's Town and we ask him guidance, “How do I reach Simon's Town and which road do I take?” and when he shows you the road, because of your understanding of what is to be achieved, you will start taking that road, you will start walking on that road. Now the person that has reached there will show you the path, he will tell you I have travelled this path, these are the obstacles you will come across; th es e will be the joys and sorrows too on the path, he will tell you of these things so you are prepared. Good. Now when you are prepared to take on the task, your task becomes lighter, why? Because of the preparation. Now one can reach the ideal through trial and error, but why when we have someone or meet someone that has travelled the road, it makes our path smoother, more enjoyable. Good, and then the man that has reached will show you how. In our case, when it comes to enlightenment, self-integration, which is synonymous with self-realisation, self-realisation is synonymous with God-realisation; God-realisation is enlightenment, good. Then what we do for that in our case? We do our meditations, good! The value of meditation is the integrating factor whereby we learn, we experience how the spirit and the mind and the body can be harmonised -- can be harmonised, and that is the path towards enlightenment and as gr eater and greater harmony takes place within us, then all our actions also become harmonious, all our thoughts also become harmonious all the time increasingly so everyday, day by day, step at a time, lead thou me on kindly light -- lead thou me on kindly light to enlightenment, yes. So in the beginning -- in the beginning we do our meditations regularly and in our waking life, very consciously we do right thinking and right acting, right thought and right action and when we have become sufficiently -- sufficiently integrated, then we would not have to consciously think right or consciously act right. Thinking and acting too then becomes spontaneous, automatically we just think right, automatically we just act right because a greater harmony has developed within ourselves and as the harmony increases and so joy increases and every thought and every action becomes joyful, full of joy. That is how it works, that is how we find our ideal, understand where we are going and then the ways and means are found. Good. And if one has sincerity, that sincere yearning I spoke about, if one has there, then from out of the blue, the ways and means are put in our path, divinity does not come down to come and pat your back, but divinity has his instruments. You’d meet people, you'd be led to read a certain book or you’d meet a man because of your sincerity you automatically attract. When the chela is ready the master appears, always. It is a law -- it is a law, irrefutable law. When you're ready, he is there. So it means divinity comes down to us, we must just be ready for it. He comes -- he comes, that is why we call divinity compassionate, his grace dawns upon us. The gr ound does not shout for the dew, the dew automatically comes to the ground, the vapour around, if the ground has the - - the right coldness or condensing power, then the vapour condenses -- condenses itself into dew and in the early

11. SA77- 33 morning sun, that dew glisten like pearls. How beautiful, yes. And that is how we enrich our lives but let us be ready, yes, and the way to be ready, the way to attract grace is by diving within ourselves and how do we dive within ourselves? Through meditation. So simple, so easy, so delightful, so joyful. Public: So beautiful. Public 1: So easy (laughs) Gururaj: So easy, yeah. You know it is simple to be happy, I always say this it is simple to be happy, but so difficult to be simple (laughs). Public: < 0:57:50.5 > perhaps it could be our last question but cou ld I ask something about meditation itself? If somebody is in < 0:57:55.9 > about the process and the -- we also know that the process is such t hat the power of gurushakti would neutralise samskaras, could you say something about the balancing of the meditat ion process with the other activity? In other words, what could be wrong if somebody say sitting five hours in meditation and if there could be something wrong in it in the sense of being imbalanced , what would be the mechanics required? Why would they hav e --- Gururaj: If you go to a doctor if you're not well, doctor gives you medicines and he tells you one teaspoon three times a day, good. Well, you carry out those instructions. If you think that at one shot I’ll finish the whole bottle (laughs) that -- that would be bad for you, it’ ll make you more ill than better. So do according to prescription. If he tell to meditate half an hour, why five hours? Public: < 0:59:03.3 > I want to know why. How can gurushakti can , then why not? Gururaj: Guru -- meditation, if its overdone, right, brings you to a certain very -- very fine level. Physiologically you are not perhaps ready for that very fine level, it is the same story as taking the whole bottle of medicine, yeah. See that is why -- that is why sometimes I put people on meditations for ten minutes, I say “You don’t do more than ten minutes and gradually we will increase you your time” and there’s a purpose for it -- there's a purpose for it. We know what would be suitable for what person, okay? Yeah. And then of course, right living and right -- right living which is right thinking and -- and -- and right action, that has to be consciously done and when we do things consciously in the beginning, later on it becomes automatic. Like a child when he learns to play the piano, he has to watch the keys pressing them one at a time

12. SA77- 33 and when he has become profession, then he could have a talk on philosophical matters with you and yet be playing one of the symphonies, automatic -- automatic. Okay but one has to start very consciously some effort is put into right living, good. Meditation is effortless but right living in the beginning can be very effortful, oh yes. I think its 12:00. Public: Gururaj < 1:01:00.5 > Gururaj: (Laughs) Yeah -- yeah it -- it -- it is so simple to be happy, but so difficult to be simple (laughs). Public: < 1:01:15.3 > Gururaj: 12:00 huh? We will break for tea.

2. SA77- 33 like to measure things in a test-tube. Good. What law is it that keeps that atom together? Good. And even in splitting of the atom are they really splitting the law? Because the law can never be split. Fine! They are only splitting the material substance of the atom and not the law that governs the atom. Fine! What is that law? Good. Now is there any substance in that law or is that law beyond all substance? If it is beyond all substance, then -- then instruments which are also made of substance could never unfathomed that which is substanceless. Good. Now if we discover the law that governs the atom, then we have discovered God -- then we have discovered God and one thing is for sure that through any scientific enquiry or any scientific method, one could never find that law. That law can be proven yet it can be proven, but it can be proven experientially. If man's mind is brought to a level whereby the mind transcends the mind, then in that transcended -- transcendent state which is beyond all matter, then you can experience that law which governs the atom, because the law that governs the atom is the same law that governs us. Now what are the mechanics of experiencing it? Experiencing the law that governs the atom would mean identification with the law of the atom. So in that state of meditation and this is where meditation leaves us to -- leaves us to go beyond the mind and in that beyondness, we identify ourselves with the beyondness of the atom. So experientially we can know what that law is and how can we know what that law is is by complete identification of our higher self, that beyondness with the other beyondness. Now when we reach and experience and know the beyondness of the atom, then we can experience and reach and know the beyondness of the entire universe bec ause the composition of the atom is exactly the same composition of the whole universe. The same mechanics are involved, the same law is involved. So by knowing that law that governs the atom, we know the whole universe. Good. Now the universe is substance and you can only know substance when you go beyond substance. So what it involves is this -- what it involves is this that through meditations when we go beyond the mind and matter, because mind too is matter. When we go beyond that and the identification takes place, then we become one with the universe and that one ness is identification, no separation is known, there are no two, there's only one and in that beyondness, we observe - - we observe all the laws of relativity and we really know the meaning of what matter is and when we have gone beyond from that beyondness, as the saying goes, if you could have a foothold standing outside the earth, you can move the earth and that is why the realised man that has gone beyond can look at the entire universe ob jectively, unattachedly and because of that he can manipulate the universe. He will not change the basic laws of the universe, but he can put together or bring together various factors, various laws and by putting two laws together, he creates a third law and this is the power of gurushakti whereby people's lives -- through gurushakti, peoples lives are automatically very smoothly, very spontaneously changed where the awareness expands, the heart expands and mind and heart also becomes one. So one

5. SA77- 33 between knowledge and wisdom. There is the difference and wisdom stems from within. There too meditation plays its part where it takes you within and you develop just knowingness, intuitive knowingness. Now in a short span of life, it is impossible for a person to experience everything in this world, but when the inner self is activated, then the intuitive knowledge or wisdom that is brought out, that flows out, then that which you can experience in seventy years, you will experience in seven minutes, seven seconds. It just knowingness, that is wisdom. So intellectual knowledge, may that be the first step to develop the understanding that brings out the wisdom; that is the process. So in our spiritual practices and meditation, we develop some intellectual knowledge, it guides us, it pushes us forward to real sincere seeking and invariably, unavoidably we stir up that storehouse within us which is wisdom, the kingdom of heaven is wisdom. Oh yes! And intellectual knowledge can bring pain and pleasure. Yes, because it is still within the law of opposites. Today t he intellect will tell you this, tomorrow the intellect will tell you that of the same principle and a conflict arises but when there's wisdom, wisdom brings about love, brings about bliss because wisdom dawns only when you go beyond the intellectual knowledge and the nature of wisdom is bliss, there is no conflict. Right! So we use the mind, the intellect as a stepping stone to reach something which is far far greater and we do that through meditation and I have seen with the thousands of meditators we have throughout the world, I have seen how even very illiterate people have become so wise, has wisdom. It just flows out of him, it just flows spontaneously but the readiness must be aware and all these things bring -- all these practices , not only meditational practices, but also right living which means right thinking, right action -- good -- develops that intuitive ability and I've seen, as I've said, illiterate people becoming so wise and they operate on a level of knowingness and that knowingness can only come if we are regular in our practices and dive deep within ourselves twice a day. That's the formula. Okay? Anyone else? Public: Guruji, you spoke about the atom and scientists and science. One play on the wrong track, what are they going to achieve when they find a little bit more and a little bit more? Gururaj: What science is going to achieve in future? Let us see what science has achieved in the past. They have discovered the atom; they have discovered the method to split the atom and which has only brought about destruction. Science has discovered electricity and that is how the electric chair was born, yes, yes good Science has discovered the labour saving devices and because of these labour saving devices people have become more ill. Yes, it’s very easy to polish the floor with electric polisher, but do it with your hands and knees with your hands on your knees and you’ll be exercising yourself, you don’t need to do special exercises, half an hour exercises in the morning and half an hour exercises in the evening, just do the ordinary housework and your system gets enough exercise, yes. That is wh at science has done in the past, it has destroyed, it has made people and I heard someone say that the more medicines are

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