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1. UK 76-4 Gururaj. I've not come to lecture to you - is this working? Can you hear me at the back? Is that better? Good. Fine. I've not come to lecture to you, lecturing really means that I am trying to teach you something, or convey something to you which I feel you should know. But I have come to communicate with you which means that there would be an exchange between what is in your mind and how that mind could be combined to thoughts which I might have. In this communication there is a flow, not only of minds but of heart and in that flow, let us discover what depths we can enter into the enquiry of truth. So who will like to start me off with a question? Aide. By the way questions could be addressed over here on microphone so that everyone can Hear them if you like. Who would like to start off with a question? Questioner. ............. (Inaudible). Gururaj. Good. Fine. I'll write a book now. (Gururaj laughs) Questioner. .......... I didn't hear the question ........... (Inaudible). Aide. She wants to know something about the process of reincarnation, what does the term reincarnation mean. That was one aspect of the question. The second aspect was ................ (Inaudible) Gururaj. Good, now to answer the question we will first have to establish the meaning of reincarnation. Now do we want to believe in reincarnation or do we not want to believe in reincarnation? Good. That depends entirely upon us. Reincarnation is a subject that could never really be defined or it would never really be intellectualised but it can be experienced. So there are various inferences that would point to the existence of the soul being eternal and how the soul through various births, could perpetuate itself and establish its eternity. We do find in various beliefs, in various religions that one of their pillars is reincarnation. They maintain that why should one child be born in happy circumstances while another child in unhappy circumstances. The child at birth is assumed to be innocent. Why should it be that one child is happy while the other child is unhappy? Now if there is a law in the universe and that law is supposed to be a fair law then why should this happen? Why should this law be unjust? For that, the answer some philosophers give would be that we have lived a past life or past lives and what we are today is the sum total of the past existences. Now this might not sound entirely logical because it is an inference. It cannot be proven in a test-tube in a laboratory. But we have had cases where we would find young children that have developed the ability somehow or the other that could go back into

2. UK 76-4 their past lives and what they have said has been verified. People, children have talked of places very, very far away and of certain cultures of which they know nothing about and yet what they have said has been investigated and proven to be true. Now these are inferences and through these inferences we do assume that there is or there was many lives before this one that we live. If this law, this infinite law, this eternal law is regarded to be just then with the help of these inferences, we can take it for granted that we have lived past lives. Now from the very first impulse of creation, when the individual soul became individualised from the Divine source, from the one source, from the first principle, it had to go through various stages of evolution. There were evolutionary processes through which that first primal cell went through, the plant kingdom, the mineral kingdom, the plant kingdom, the animal kingdom and then to the human kingdom. And yet the human has a mind, this mind is so vast, this mind is so vast that its vastness encompasses the entire universe. Th e extent of the mind is to the extent of the universe. Now if this is so then this mind too has the ability to store within itself the memories of all its past existences. There are Yogis who have practices whereby they could experience their past existences. What I tell you today is by what I have personally experienced and not by the inferences that philosophers have put forth. This life as I've said before is the sum totality of all the lives we have lived. Now to accept the theory of reincarnation, there is another theory that has to be accepted and that is the law of Karma. Karma, to define it briefly, would be the law of action. So in these various existences, we have been subjected to the law of action. In the plant kingdom, in the mineral kingdom and in the animal kingdom the forces were unconscious. It followed a pattern whereby there was a natural unconscious progression. We have found that the seemingly lifeless stones also contains life. If a stone is left outside for a certain period of time, certain changes take place. Now those changes in the stone does not necessarily take place because of the environment but because inherent in the stone itself it has that changing quality. It has and any change necessarily involves a form of evolution. From there we have the plant kingdom which is also life. The stone contains life, the plant contains life and scientists have proved that even in a cabbage there is the impulse of a heartbeat. Further progression has taken place where one is led to the animal kingdom and we have found certain species of animals that possess a high degree of intelligence through this procession. Through this procession at last we come to the human kingdom and that is where all our troubles have started. Good. The troubles have started in the human kingdom because the man has been given or he has evolved the faculty to think. He has evolved the faculty to think and since he became a thinking being, he has cognised problems for himself, created by himself. This means that there is not a power sitting somewhere up in the clouds that would ordain happiness for one and unhappiness for another.

3. UK 76-4 It means that with the evolution in man, the thinking faculty that has evolved in man, has determined all his characteristics. And today we are but the sum total of all those characteristics that we have gained through all those existences. In man today we can find the mineral, we find some people dead as a stone. Okay. Right. In man we do find the qu alities of a plant and of course the most dominating quality in man is the animal. We are vicious sometimes, perhaps most of the time. So, so man has in him the dominant qualities of animal. Man has in him qualities of a man. And man has in him the qualities of a God-man. Having these qualities of the God-man, it assures us of further progression, further evolution through reincarnation perhaps, to further development, to further unfoldment. Now this whole process of evolution is dependent on the belief or on the fact of reincarnation. Reincarnation in turn is dependent on the law of karma. Now with the development of consciousness in man, with the development of the thinking faculty in man as I said, the problems have started. Now with the thinking faculty we have also another faculty, called free will. Now within the whole concept, within the whole vast range of this evolutionary process, within this vast pattern of existence there are smaller patterns. There are wheels within wheels. And the smaller wheels within the range of the larger pattern, within the range of the larger wheel is free will. So if we want to leave London and go to Birmingham that would form the general pattern that we are to reach Birmingham. But the free will comes in to tell us which road we are going to take, which Motorway we are going to take, are we going to use a motorcar or a bicycle, or a donkey cart. That is free will. Man with the development of thinking ability has also been given freewill. And when I say that all troubles began with consciousness, the consciousness and the faculty of thinking, the spoke, one of the spokes in the wheel was free will. Now with the ability to think, we have the ability to exercise free will. And how we exercise the freewill determines our progression, determines our evolution in this life as it had determined our evolution in past lives. Good. How shall we use this will? How shall we use this will is dependent upon ourselves because the word free will tells us that it is free? Being free, man has to modulate his mind in such a way that the maximum benefit of this free will that is within the framework of Divine will, has to be used. And to find steady progression, to find steady evolution, the expressions of the man's free will has to work in harmony with Divine will. When people talk of expanding consciousnesses, many people are in quite a hurry to reach Divine consciousness. They are, they want that. Some of them want it instantly, instant tea, instant coffee. Fine. Good.

4. UK 76-4 So how do we arrive at the destination? How do we arrive at the goal and aim of all evolution and what is the aim, what is the goal of this evolutionary process? We, from the first amoebic cell, have now reached the stage of man and man has to reach the stage of Divinity. We do accept the fact that man is created by Divinity, by a first principle which commonly is known as God. You can call it an energy, you can call it God, whatever you wish to call it, these are labels. But there is a law functioning in the universe which is greater than us. A plant grows, all the conditions of the plant growing is there. The right amount of water is there. The sun is there. The right amount of air is there. The right amoun t of minerals in the ground is there and the right amount of fertiliser is there. Yet there is a co-ordinating principle that just uses the sufficient amount of all these ingredients to make the plant thrive, to make the plant grow. That co-ordinating principle is what we call Divine law, what we call God, what we call energy, Divine energy, labels. Fine. But it is an accepted fact that there is this co-ordinating principle. Now when we have been created by this co-ordinating principle, is it true that we have been created by that principle? Now creation naturally presupposes imperfection. Who wants to create? Only the imperfect want to create, to find perfection. A poet writes a poem to perfect himself, to express himself. He has a need to express himself and that need is because he is imperfect. That which is perfect has no need. Then let us take the example of the musician. He composes a symphony. He has a need to express himself in the symphony so that by his very expression he could pe rfect himself. That too is a need and that could apply to an artist as well. Now if we regard that eternal Divine principle to be perfect what need could it have to express itself? So we say that Divine principle did not create but it manifested. The Manifestor manifested the entire universe. It is like fire, the fire does not create heat. It is the nature of the fire to produce heat. So it is not creation in a sense but it is a manifestation of the Manifestor. Now the purpose of life would b e to return to the primal source of manifestation. The manifestation wants to merge or become one with the Manifestor and therefore we need the process of evolution which incorporates the law of karma, the law of action, the law of our doings and the law of reincarnation. So if we accept the principle of evolution, automatically we do accept karma and we accept reincarnation. They are part and parcel of itself. Now what makes anything want to meet its Maker? Because inherent within the manifestation, inherent within the manifestation is the essence of the Manifestor. Within the manifestation is the essence of the Manifestor and because the essence being there, there is a magnetic pull for the heat to return to the fire. It is a natural law of gravity that it wants to pull itself back. And if the nature of the Manifestor is bliss, every person consciously or unconsciously desires that bliss and that is why we continue with our search for happiness. There is not a single thinking person in this world that would say 'I want to be unhappy'. No. Everyone says 'I want to become happy' because his inherent nature is happiness and

5. UK 76-4 he wants to return to that primal happiness. So we proceed from a source and we desire, we want to return to the source. But how do we want to return to the source? There again comes the play of man's freewill. The human mind in its present state of evolution is a creature of conditioning. It has been conditioned by the environment it has been born in. I t has been conditioned by his teachers, by his own life, by certain hereditary factors got from his parents. So all these aspects go into the human being whereby he has a conditioned mind. The conditioned minds could be very deluding. The conditioned mind could be very deluding because one of the components of the mind is the ego. Ego means the desire for self-preservation. Now if we analyse this carefully what does man want to preserve? What does man want to preserve, is his personal small identity. He has freewill now and the freewill is used for self preservation and self preservation means preserving the identity and that identity is composed of his little body and his little mind. He forgets his true identity, the primal source that he has proceeded from and that forms the reality, that forms the background of his small self, the small identity. So then man searches and it becomes a search, so he starts first searching externally. He deludes himself in thinking that if I have a millions pounds I would be happy because his search is happiness. When he has gained that, he will want two million, he thinks two million will give him happiness. And it will go on and on, and he might amass many millions but happiness will not be found. He, his search for happiness there is based on a sense of insecurity because basically the character of the ego is insecure. Basically the character is insecure because the ego is forever changing and unreal. The ego is forever changing and therefore unreal, unstable. And all his search for happiness through his mind is perpetuated by feelings of insecurities, inadequacy, instability. Now like that, we search externally. We search to find happiness through the love of someone, man for a woman, woman for a man, and in many aspects of daily living the search goes on externally until one day he realises that all this external search is not taking me anywhere for the millionaire, the multi-millionaire too can only eat one meal at a time and can sleep in one bed at a time. Good. Right. The rest, if he lives in a two roomed flat or if he lives in a fifty-roomed mansion, he is still insecure because his search has been in the wrong direction. The right direction would be to probe within. And in probing within, he would find the stable unchanging factor that has been within since he individuated himself, since he became an individual entity, since that primal impulse, since that first vibration, since that amoebic self . So that is the purpose of our meditational practices, is to delve deep within ourselves and find that eternal factor which is forever stable. Now for this, there are practices whereby one can go beyond the limitations of the body and one can go beyond all mind and beyond the mind, beyond the little cunning mind whose nature is ego, one goes beyond the

6. UK 76-4 mind to find the real self that is within one. And it is only by finding the real essence that is within one, that true happiness dawns. The qualities of the mind as we said is to be unstable. It is forever changing and even psychologists and psychiatrists have only scratched the surface of the mind because as we know the human mind is only capable of using ten percent of itself, ninety percent lies dormant. So through meditational practices we cover the full range of the conscious mind and the unconscious mind to reach that which is real, that which is beyond all mind. And by reaching the reservoir, we bring forth those Divine energies to permeate the full level of our minds and our physical bodies so that we can experience joy, bliss and happiness. So the process at first, since primitive time, since primitive times man also searched outside himself and that is how the belief or the worship of nature spirits, nature Gods and all those things started. They felt that all power all happiness can come from without. And yet the Bible of two thousand years ago and the Vedas perhaps much more older, has told us explicitly that 'Find Ye the Kingdom of Heaven that is within and all else shall follow.' So man's quest for happiness hinges on the fact that he must make a right about turn and search within and that is the purpose of meditation which is a scientific process. It is not based on belief and neither faith but it is based on experience, on an experiment man conducts for himself to reach within himself so that the internal man becomes one with the external man and in that fusion there joy is found. And that is the purpose of life. So the process we go through, the mechanics we go through from the amoebic stage to the present stage would be a process of reincarnation, would be the process of cognition and the proper use of the law of karma. And having the instrument of the thinking mind using the freewill as a basis to flow with the current of nature, to flow within natural laws and not against it, would be conducive for man to find and reach his goal sooner, much sooner, than if he had to use the highway to Birmingham which is full of motor cars and traffic lights and many obstructions. So he takes the other road which takes him directly to his goal and this smooth process of reaching the goal is done very easily through meditation. Okay. So that would constitute the purpose of life. That would bring to us the realisation that this body, this mind is not all that there is. Because this mind and this body cannot supply us with the internal yearning for that happiness and joy. Because that happiness and joy lies far deeper than all levels of the body and all levels of the mind. We have to go beyond the mind to find that depth whereby we can experience that joy and happiness. So in the process what happens is this, a great self-integration takes place where the mind, body and spirit functions harmoniously with each other. They infuse themselves within each other and in that integration we get rid of all our insecurities, instabilities and inadequacies. Then we live a life filled, fulfilled, well lived then truly can we say well lived this life, well lived. Otherwise, it’s a waste of time. Okay.

7. UK 76-4 Questioner. Guruji, (inaudible) ...........search for happiness......I understand that you answered the question in the immediacy of now and also in the eternity of now. I’ve understood that human beings lived in various ages called Yugas .......... (Inaudible) I would like to know if the search for happiness is different within different Yugas. For instance in this particular Yuga, Kali-Yuga, we know that from time to time great teachers have come to help us to understand that there is a search for happiness because we've lost it. And I'd like to know the mechanics of this process within the age that we're living in and whether the search for happiness is different in say, living in Sat-Yuga? Gururaj. Now firstly how can we prove that there are Yugas? How do we know that there was a Sat-Yuga or a Traita- Yuga or a Vapa-Yuga. How do we know such Yugas existed? These Yugas might just have been an assumption. Why do we call this age we live in to be Kali-Yuga which essentially means the Yuga of strife? If we probe into the theories of Yugas, it would not help us in our present day living. All philosophy if it is just based on mind and intellectualism would remain mental gymnastics. What we are concerned about is here and now and our daily living. Now they have put times to various Yugas that a certain Yuga lasts for a certain amount of years, another for another amount of years. And this is defined as the progression of the universe where there were times in the universe where things were better and there are times now in the universe where things are not so good. But those are assumptions put forward, those are assumptions put forward by theological people perhaps or perhaps by the creators of legend and mythology. Would it not be better to realise that all those Yugas, all those ages is now here within man. Within man there is Sat-Yuga, that is the Yuga of goodness and within man there is also Kali-Yuga, that which could use the essence of freewill, that could use freewill towards a devolution rather than evolution. So our primary concern should not be so much with mythologies. We leave them to people who like science fiction stories. We want to know what is here and now. All these Yugas are represented within our complete makeup here and now. We have, we are the combination of all these faculties. We are the combination of as I said before the animal, the plant, the mineral and man and also God-man. And we can, through the process of meditation, reach the highest level of ourselves which we can call Sat-Yuga, which means the age of truth. The age of truth is nowhere else, the age of truth is within ourselves. This which is measured in time in terms of various Yugas is on the relative level. It is the relative mind that has devised these Yugas. Do we not know, have we not heard that eternity is within a moment? Then where is the concept of time? Where is the concept of space? Because admitting all these Yugas that might have been, is to admit the reality of time when time is created, by not reality but by relativity and created by the limited human mind. It is created by the limitations not even of the complete mind because we only know ten percent of it. When we discover very

8. UK 76-4 consciously through further processes of evolution, when we start using perhaps twenty percent of the mind or thirty percent of the mind, is it not possible then that instead of four Yugas, we might create eight Yugas. So we do not concern ourselves with the past or what Yugas were. Mythology, Hindu mythology says that there are these various phases of existences in evolution and that the universe functions in cycles. That for a certain duration of time, certain modes of living is there. Other periods of time a lesser, a grosser mode of living comes into being. But that could be an assumption. How can we verify here with our ten percent mind that that is the truth. But what we can know with our present thinking mind that all those Yugas, all the characteristics that are described in these Yugas are existent within us now. Yet all these Yugas that have been described are under the laws of nature. They function under the laws of nature and nature is controlled by three elements known in Sanskrit as Tamas, Rajas and Sattva. The element of Tamas is called inertia, the element of Rajas is called action and the element of Sattva is the refinement, the refinement of all thinking processes, all natural processes and the highest form of natural law which is akin to truth, that exists eternally. Now none of these three aspects of the laws of nature are destructible. They are forever and forever existing. So within the universe, within the creation or within the manifestation, all these aspects are there. Whatever is good has also been eternal as well as that which we with our minds regard to be bad. What is the difference between good and bad? Good is that which is evolutionary. That which is evolutionary is more happiness producing. That which is bad is devolutionary. It is retrogressive and being retrogressive, it is unhappiness producing. Yet within the essence of all unhappiness lies happiness. And within the essence of all happiness, there is unhappiness. They are inseparable. The duty of man by manipulating, through his meditational practices, he manipulates certain vibrations that constitute this universe or that constitute his mind, his very being and by meditation, one manipulates these vibrations so that we experience the finest levels, the subtlest levels of these vibrations which is called Sattvic or Sattva. And by continually having these Sattvic vibrations dominating our mode of living, we do not destroy Rajas and Tamas but we subdue them. When the Sattvic qualities become dominant in our lives then automatically the Rajas and Tamas are subdued. When we put on the light, do we say that we have destroyed darkness? We have not destroyed darkness. It is always there because as soon as we switch off the light, darkness is there. It is not a matter of destruction, it is a matter of predominance. And that is how life is lived. And within the realms of these Gunas, these three Gunas, these three qualities which constitute all nature throughout the universe, these three qualities which constitute the elements of nature are forever existent. They are indestructible. They could never be destroyed.

9. UK 76-4 So man with his freewill combining it through his meditational practices to Divine will, he experiences the Sattvic qualities, the finer, the elevated, the sublimer qualities of nature until one day he even goes beyond them, he transcends them and there in the realm of transcendence he finds his real self and that is the purpose. So all the Yugas are here and now. We do not need to concern ourselves with mythology. We need to concern ourselves with practicology, that's a new word. Fine. You see? So in our progression, in our progression - I have a habit of combining the questions - so in our progression to find that happiness which is our essential nature, in the progression to find happiness which is our essential nature, we go through the processes in evolution which combines the laws of Karma, which combines reincarnation, which combines the constituents of nature, the Gunas, which in turn is a reflection of all the stages of man which can be called the Yugas because we live all the ages within ourselves and all these processes combined we go beyond all these to find that truth, that eternity that is forever within us. There's a story about Milarepa, he says that 'When I was young I did dark deeds. When I grew up a bit more and had some more sense, I did good deeds. But now I do neither, I'm beyond good and bad, I'm beyond black and white'. So until we live within the realms of relative nature, until we live within relativity we will always find the opposite good, bad, white, black and every opposite you can think of. It is only by our practices, our system, there are other systems too but I am only allowed, authorised to speak of the system that I teach, and by our system, we go beyond the laws of opposites we go beyond that which is love and that which is hate. We go to a realm which is bliss. That is super love, super love. The love we know. What do we know about love? What do we know about love? Can man really love? Does he think he really loves? Man loves his wife. Why does he love his wife? Why? Because she has a cute nose or because she cooks a lovely dinner or perhaps because she has a clean hankie for him in the morning. Selfish love. That's not love. Even, even in conjugal bliss, even in love-making is that love-making total? How many people can experience the totality of himself even in a natural act of love making and we as householders, not ascetic or monks sitting in the Himalayan caves, they live, they live a householder's life and they perform all these biological functions which are necessary to them, which is a basic need, which is built into them. They are built in with this instinct or this urge or this desire. But how many people can really use this desire to its maximum value? Man makes love, woman makes love. It applies to both. Okay. It has to be mutual in any case. Good. Man makes love with his body. A little higher man has a mental appreciation, he makes love with mind and body. But the real togetherness, the real oneness is only found when that love-making becomes a totality. And the totality is there only when in his mind and his body he can infuse the third aspect of himself which is the spirit. The three aspects of man, mind, body and spirit and it is only when man can live, as in this instance we have given of love making, that if he can infuse all these three aspects into one action then he is functioning as a total being.

10. UK 76-4 Now like that in every action in life, in everyday life we find a person thinking something saying something else and doing something else. So when man suffers, it is not unnatural that he should suffer because the three sides of himself are pulling in different directions and then he gets so tired he runs to the pub. (Gururaj laughs). Yes, this is the basis of all suffering in this world. This is the basis of all forms of escape. People escape in various kinds of things. People escape into the bottle. People escape into other kinds of vices. All the time it is nothing but escaping and the tragedy is this that they are trying to escape not from something else but they are trying to escape from themselves. Now here a system is given, a meditational system is given whereby they would have the ability in a very short while, within a few days to know themselves, to be able to infuse that ‘Innerness’ with the ‘Outerness’, that internality with the externality so that it becomes a totality. That is the purpose of life and that is the secret of all happiness. That is the secret in the relationship between man and woman. And when one functions as a total human being then his life flows with the current of nature. And when you flow with the current of nature, nature becomes supportive to you. Nature becomes supportive so that it gives you an added push to greater and greater joy. So therefore I say that if our goal is joy and happiness then the path to joy must also be joyful. It is here for us to take and it costs nothing. Okay. Fine. Next Questioner. Gururaj, your practices of meditation are generally regarded as being successful because they are a personal technique which you give to us. What I would like to know first of all is, if this is a very successful technique, how is it possible for one man to teach so many people to meditate? Gururaj. That's a very beautiful question. Questioner. (Cont'd). And also I would like to know the role of a guru in establishing a relationship with God, how the guru and the practice he gives, comes into this relationship? Gururaj. How is it possible, how is it possible for a guru to establish a relationship with millions of people in the world? Right. In your concept there is one guru. Fine. Now there are four thousand million people in this world and there are four thousand million gurus. Yes. The duty of the guru whose teachings you follow is to awaken the internal guru that is resident within you. And there are methods, there are methods whereby this International Organisation of ours can contact each and every individual being wherever he lives. I come from South Africa, that's six thousand miles away, and from South Africa I have initiated hundreds and hundreds of people here in Britain. Although I'm six thousand miles away, these people in Britain are experiencing the benefits. So that verifies the point that there is no such thing as distance. My

11. UK 76-4 communication with you is not necessarily on the physical level. My communication with you is not necessarily on the mental level, but the communication is with the sum totality of your personality which constitutes or which approaches your spiritual level. And if the spiritual level is eternal, if the spiritual level is as vast as the universe then you don't need to be in England, six thousand miles away, you can be in Mars and I will still contact you. Good. Okay. Fine. Because you take the ocean, you disturb a wave on the seashore at Eastbourne and the vibration set up disturbing the wave at the vibration, disturbing the wave at Eastbourne would have an effect on the wave at Capetown in South Africa where I live. It is a continuum. It is a continuous one complete mass of existence and its extent is as vast as the universe. All the time, all the time, it is. You are sitting there and I sit here. Now you think that you are separated from me. It is not so. There is something just fifty, sixty, seventy years ago scientists have discovered a fine matter which they call aether, aether, aether, aether. Yeah. I can't speak English, aether. So there is no separation whatsoever. It is one solid mass existing in different degrees. We can use the analogy of vapour. Vapour exists in a fine level, vapour can also exist in the level of water, and vapour can exist in a solidified form as ice, yet the constituent principle of H20 remains, pardon, remains the same and unchanging. So my contact with you is not on the principle of change. My contact with you is on the principle of the changeless, of that which never changes. Now how does a Guru do this? Would you like to know? Then I must teach you my business. (Gururaj laughs) Yes, yes. Many lifetimes have gone by to reach this. See if I can't explain something about it. Good. The qualification of a real guru is this that he must first be able to experience the unchanging element that is within him. He must first, in an individual form, experience the unchanging element and once he experiences the unchanging element in an individual form, he broadens it to a universal form. So the real guru, to him time and space is non existent. In the level, in the level, in his state of Samadhi or in his state of deep meditation, all is here and now. You can be six thousand miles away but when I am in Samadhi, you are here in front of me and talking to me as you are talking to me now. So that quality, that ability is only attained when one has identified himself, when one has become one, when the manifest has become one with the Manifestor. When one has become one with the Manifestor then you are also part of the manifest and your essence is the unmanifest. So the level of communication is on the level of that which is unmanifest and the subtler the level one approaches, the more powerful it is, the more powerful. You can throw down a whole mountain and it will only make a large hole here in the middle of London, but if you use a small atom and split it, it can blow up the whole of London.

12. UK 76-4 So the deeper we go to when we go to a greater and more subtler level, there it becomes more powerful and the range of its power is such that it embraces the entire universe. So wherever you are even in this life or the next or that which is in between you are still contacted. Okay. It sounds a bit complicated, doesn't it? You have to experience it. (Gururaj laughs) Yes. Good. Anyone else? I think we are having a lovely meeting tonight the questions are really - I'm warming up now. I hope we don't have to run away to Birmingham. Questioner. Gururaj, can you explain, can you please explain, Gururaj, what the eternal sin is and how, in which Divine way God wanted us to multiply? Gururaj. Can I explain what the eternal what is? Questioner. Sin is, sin? Gururaj. Sin. Oh. Spell sin. Questioner. S I N. Gururaj. Sin. Oh, sin. You want me to explain what the eternal sin is and Questioner(Cont’d). And by what Divine way God wanted us to multiply ourselves? Gururaj. Now what has that to do with sin? Questioner(Cont’d). I don't know, that's what I want to know. Gururaj. Fine. Good. Now if you ask me about sin, now if you ask me about sin, I don't know what it is. How can I tell you? Yes. Right. Sin is normally something which is accepted to be anti nature. There are certain natural laws and within the range of these natural laws, there are factors and if we do not adhere to these factors, or if we go contrary to these factors then we say that we have committed sin. Now our concept of sin depends upon the society we live in. For

13. UK 76-4 example here in England polygamy would be a sin, but perhaps in some Arab country or some Muslim country where they are allowed to marry more than one wife, where polygamy is allowed then there it is not sin. So sin depends upon the culture we live in and how the tenets, the laws of that culture is produced or is put into action for the stability of that particular society. So to have polygamy in some Arabic country would not be sinful, but for a man here, a Western man to have half a dozen wives is sinful. Fine. So the purpose of all ethical and moral laws which define sin are created by man for the purpose of stability in society. We have to stabilise society so that society can function smoothly, society can function smoothly. For example if we go in the midst of darkest Africa and the Chieftain there to entertain, to entertain you, he would have a kraal of wives and one of the things he does is lends you one of them for your entertainment. That is true. That is true. Those of you that have studied anthropology and have gone into the various Aboriginal races, this is very true. This is done. Now to us that is sinful, but in darkest Africa where this has been a custom, to them it is not sinful and this action of theirs is there to stabilise their tribe and their communication with the tribe next door. That is done. But now what is the original sin? I think that is what you really want to know. Good. Fine. What is the original sin? The, from the absolute point of view there is no sin. From the absolute point of view there is no sin. Now we must not go about doing everything and say 'Gururaj said there's no sin'. (Gururaj laughs) That of course would be wrong because we have not reached the absolute, we are still in the relative and being in the relative we have to follow the relative laws. Fine. From the absolute there is no sin. Let us think about that for a moment. The sun shining in the sky is instrumental or does draw vapour from the water here on earth, from the oceans, from the rivers, it draws up water into the sky. The same vapour that is drawn up into the sky formulates a cloud. The cloud becomes heavy and the very cloud created by the heat of the sun obscures the sun and we find darkness downstairs, we find darkness here. Fine. Now that to us we say what has obscured Divinity, what has obscured Divinity and why has the bright beautiful day become dark. So here we have light and darkness, light is that which is good and darkness that which is sin. Yet it is within the laws of nature. It is within the law, it is within the range, it is with the nature of the sun to draw up the vapour and create the clouds, clou d and thereby obscure itself. So from the absolute view point there is no sin. It is a functioning, it is how the world should function. The original sin according to the Bible, I do not teach theology, according to the Bible they talk of the fall of man, they talk of Adam and Eve and what have you and that of course you would find a theological answer if you go to a theological priest. Right. My idea from the absolute viewpoint is that there is no sin but from the relative viewpoint, there is not

14. UK 76-4 necessarily an original sin. There is a quality of behaviour which is anti the flow of nature or against the flow of nature and that constitutes sin which has been happening from eternity. So even sin too has no beginning. When we say original sin, then the word 'original' necessarily incorporates within itself origin that which had begun. But within, within the framework, within the framework, within the actions, within the combinations of the Gunas that constitute nature this has been going on eternally. It never had a beginning and it will never have an end. Relativity is just as eternal as the absolute, the one remains steady, unchanging, the other relative side is forever changing, good, but they both are coexistent from beginless time, it never had a beginning. Now the various turbulences created in the field of relativity by the actions of the Gunas are a superimposition upon the absolute. In other words the changing is a superimposition upon that which is never changing. If we take an analogy of the ocean, the ocean has never ever existed without its waves since the beginning of ocean or in our case, the beginless ocean, the waves too are beginless. So from a, not from a theological point of view but from a philosophical point of view, sin never began and it will never end. It is a fact that will always be there and sin is that which is retrogressive, unhappiness producing to ourselves and to others, that which causes harm and against the current of nature. When we swim against the current in the river that is non-conducive to evolution and therefore it can be defined as sin, for our relative selves. But when we reach the absolute then we are beyond good and bad then there remains no sin. But that is of course only when we reach there, perhaps tomorrow. (Gururaj laughs) Good. Questioner. Gururaj, I understand that recently you had occasion to talk to the Maharishi of TM, Transcendental Meditation, can I ask you several questions relating to that? I'm a practising meditator and have been for five years of the TM variety. Gururaj. Beautiful. Questioner(Cont’d). One, did you agree with his teachings? Gururaj. Are you conducting a Inquest or Court Case? Questioner(Cont’d). No, you invited

15. UK 76-4 Gururaj. Kindly frame all your questions, I might, I might not want to be led into any controversy and I might avoid your questions. So please just ask what you want to ask and I might. Questioner(Cont’d). Can I start again? Gururaj, I understood when I came in that this was a question and answer variety of evening. I am asking questions that I need answers to. If you want me to pose them all at once Gururaj. Please do that. Questioner(Cont’d). Then I can do that. It isn't really what I need and I'm asking for something perhaps differently to all of these other people. Gururaj. As long as it’s not controversial. Questioner(Cont’d). Not controversial, they're just straight questions. Gururaj. Let us hear what you have to say. Questioner(Cont’d). It’s because I'm a meditator that I understand a great deal hopefully Gururaj. You understand a great deal of meditation, that's very nice to know. Questioner(Cont’d). Okay, well, certainly. I wanted to know if you agreed with Maharishi's teachings, one. If you did, I want to know why you didn't join forces because I consider TM a very strong force in UK and all over the world. The third part of the same question is if you didn't, would you please explain to me the difference of your teaching to TM. Do you really want me to go through this list, I have a list Gururaj. Please do, it’s quite interesting. Questioner(Cont’d). I want you to tell me what your method is and its advantages over TM. I really do need answers to these questions because I believe in what you're doing as I believe in what Maharishi is doing with Transcendental Meditation.

16. UK 76-4 Gururaj. Beautiful. Questioner(Cont’d). You - I think if I stop there and perhaps I'll have another opportunity when you have answered my question. Gururaj. I will answer your question in two seconds flat. Questioner. Yes. Gururaj. Right (Group laughs) Gururaj. Yes of course, good. Maharishi is a very, very good man. I have met him on several occasions. I love him very much and I have the greatest of respect for him and I do not wish to contradict him. There might be methods which might be an extension of his teachings, it is for your own experience to know how they would differ. So if you really want to know the difference between our methods and Maharishi's method, you first have to be initiated into our system. Then when you compare the two methods, the TM method and our method, then you yourself must judge which could be better for you. I am not here to say that my method is better than the other. I am not here to say that, that you must judge for yourself. And we don't charge any fees. If you want to be taught meditation by all means come to the British Meditation Society, first phone for an appointment, come along, experience the joy and the bliss as hundreds and hundreds of British meditators are experiencing, as well as thousands and thousands in other countries are experiencing. And perhaps the path of TM might be good for you and perhaps the path that I teach might be better for you. That is, dependent entirely upon your frame of mind, upon your state of evolution and upon what is good for you. Okay. So, so, without experiencing, how can you talk to me or ask me about the taste of sugar if you have not tasted sweetness. Now you can take sugar, you can take sugar and analyse it, you can break it up into its various chemical constituents and various other factors but yet you cannot explain the taste or the sweetness of sugar without tasting it. And before we start comparing anything, we must have a taste of brown sugar as well as white sugar and see which we like the most. All kinds of definitions would remain on the intellectual plane would remain on the mental plane. Our teachings of meditation is that which goes beyond the mind and I see no reason why anyone for that matter should enter into any controversy to say that my methods are better than yours and John's methods are better than Jack's and Jack’s

17. UK 76-4 methods are better than Tom's. It depends entirely upon man's temperament. And if a certain method is suitable for you, you have my blessings. Maharishi is a good man and if you find progress in your life doing TM please by all means do that because we want earnest people. We want people that has a real yearning to find the truth within themselves and when there's real yearning, they do not go into intellectual mental comparisons of what is good and what is bad. They rather taste the sugar and say 'Ah, I like white sugar or I like brown sugar'. Okay. Next question. Questioner. Gururaj, I have met a man, Norman Snell whom I believe you know Gururaj. Norman, who is he? Aide. He is the man who started in Oxford, he is the older man who started in Oxford, he is the man I told you about him in the car today. Gururaj. You initiated him? Aide. Yesterday. Gururaj. Oh, you initiated Norman Snell yesterday, very good, yes. Did you have a very good experience? Aide. Very good. Gururaj. Very good experience. Is he happy? Aide. Very happy. Gururaj. So he was a TM, Amrit, he was a TM initiate? Aide. Yes. That's right. Gururaj. For how many years was he practising?

18. UK 76-4 Aide. Eight years. Gururaj. Eight years. And he was initiated into our system yesterday and he enjoyed it very much. He found it very, very beautiful. (Group laughs). Did he say, did he, did he give you any reasons why he changed after eight years of TM to us? Aide. Yes. Gururaj. What reasons did he give? Questioner ................... (Inaudible) Gururaj. No, no. In this question, in this answer, look we must not be serious all the time. You know, I believe in the three L's, Life, Love and Laughter. Okay. Fine. So in these little answers I gave and in what I questioned Amrit, also constitutes part of the answer to our lady with that beautiful hat and lovely smile. Good. Questioner. My question is nearly, yah, like young Douglas here whom I met about a year ago, I want to get ahead faster. I think a number of people here this evening practising TM at the present moment if they haven't been initiated into your system, want to go ahead faster. Gururaj. Excuse me, not your system, our system Questioner(Cont’d). Alright, our system. Gururaj. We are one family. Questioner(Cont’d). Have you found, in the main that people tend to move forward in knowledge and experience at a greater rate than before? Gururaj. Are you carrying on with the question? Questioner(Cont’d). That's my question.

19. UK 76-4 Gururaj. Right. Sit down please, so I can start talking. May your weary feet rest. Good. The question was if I, if we hav e found people progressing faster in our method than other methods. Now that is very difficult to answer. It is very difficult to answer for the simple reason that a person's progress, slow or fast depends entirely upon the person himself. It depends entirely upon the person himself, upon the person's sincerity, upon the person's ability to learn quicker. And it depends also upon a person's background and also a person's evolutionary status. But one thing is sure that slow or fast, man does and must progress. He must progress. He finds in himself a far greater integration and this integration is experienced at the very first time of initiation. As we heard, I don't know why the questioner specially, specifically mentioned anyone's name, I don't know why he did that but, nevertheless, but even, there's nothing wrong really if you mention the name, but the person had a beautiful experience even after eight years of following some other system. Let me call it other system, why do we specifically point out TM or FM or YM or AM. What is FM? It's something to do with radios, isn't it? Yeah. So why do we point these things out, it is not necessary. There are systems and systems in the world and follow the system by all means that is most conducive to you. Questioner. I did not ask the question specifically for, to match your system against TM or any other system. I am a sincere person, I wish to go ahead as fast as I can. Gururaj. Beautiful, beautiful. Questioner. I like Douglas as I am sure you understand, want sincerely to do something to enable me to obtain happiness and everybody here. Gururaj. All blessings be upon you from the bottom of my heart and as well as the top of my heart. (Group & Gururaj laugh). Please, I think our Chairman wants to say a word, and now we're really becoming a family, its warming up. Ah, beautiful. Aide. I think, I think the situation here is rather clear that you can't just put particularly someone who is doing spiritua l teaching, you just can't put in a position where you say tell me that your system is better than such and such a system, because to do this is to be inconsistent with the very purpose of the Guru which is to uplift. And to uplift does not mean t o put this down or that down and say that this is not as good as this, and this is not as good as this and so on. And because

20. UK 76-4 of the fact that he was put in that position, I'm sure that this is why Gururaj beat around the bush and didn't answer the question directly. This is exactly Questioner. That was not the question asked. Aide. The question was would he grow faster through this system than TM. Questioner. I beg your pardon. Aide. I was referring to this question here and a guru can't answer a question in that way. On the other hand I'm not a guru or at least put it this way, I have a guru within and I'm in the processes of waking that up right now. Gita, my wife sitting on the other side of Gururaj there and I have been involved with the British Meditation Society for about five, six months now and our experience has been that we've had people come not just from TM but from other systems, several other systems of meditation and more than you might think, several dozen actually and they have told us. Now I'm not telling you, I'm not saying to you that I have been testing them on various variables to see what's been happening in their lives and whether this is accurate, I'm just telling you what they told me. With the exception of maybe one or two individuals, maybe three at the most, who only practised for a week and then quit, with the exception of that I don't know of anyone who felt, who didn't feel that they were growing faster through this system than what they were doing before. Now this doesn't mean, and this is very important to understand this doesn't mean that they started our system and three days later they were enlightened, or as Gururaj put it that they were in instant enlightenment. And it doesn't mean that they didn't have to continue to work and won't have to continue work for many years on their evolution to achieve the goal. For that matter, it doesn't mean that those people are going to become enlightened in this lifetime because Gururaj does not promise this. No teacher that I know of ever promises this. If some have in the past, they don't do anymore. This is very important but unequivocally people have told us that they do feel they are making more progress. Some feel that progress is much faster, others that it’s just moderately and noticeably faster. But with the exception of those three individuals who only practised for a week or two and stopped, I know of no exceptions to this. Questioner. I would like to make the point that it is the tendency of the human being to go for the best and they'll search everywhere for the best. Its easy with cars, it’s not so easy with meditation.

21. UK 76-4 Aide. I don't know whether our system is best. I honestly don't. All I know is this, that's what people tells us. And this is my own experience too. I mean I wouldn't be teaching if I hadn't experienced that and Gita has also. We feel we're growing faster and better and in a more balanced way with the heart growing at the same pace we could say as the mind rather than say the mind is staying way ahead of the heart, something like that. Questioner. Gururaj, as my name has been mentioned perhaps I should just briefly on the subject say that my own experience is like Norman I was (The tape finishes abruptly at this point.) END


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