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1. UK 78- 35 Gururaj. Only just, Mr Barnes. You see everything in life requires positioning. Questioner. Gururaj, you said that one should try to develop one's full potential and become a fulfilled individual. Please can you tell us about - could this conflict with the goals of losing one's individual ego and devoting enough time to one's family? And how do you cope with that? Gururaj. One should fulfil one's potential, one should realise one's totality and yet at the same time fulfil one's family obligation. Is that the gist of the question? Questioner.(Cont’d) What if they seem to conflict? Aide. You were also asking about the ego - of a feeling that if you fulfilled your potential, that that would conflict with the goal of mastering the small ego, overcoming the small ego. Gururaj. Beautiful. Good. In fulfilling one's potentiality, there is a misconception that one has to get rid of one's ego. That is not possible. As long as man remains an embodied being, there will be ego. In the grosser person, the ego would be expressed in far grosser values and with a more developed person, the ego would be expressed in a far-refined value. Now what is the difference between a gross ego and a refined ego? That is what we have to find out. Good. And in knowing the answer to this, the various conflicts that the ego might create, could be obliviated. So the question does not pertain around the fact of the annihilation of the ego. It does not even revolve around the fact of sublimation of the ego, because when one sublimates the ego, there, ego can only reach to a finer level in its sublimation. What we want to do as practical householders with family commitments, we want to use that very same ego that constitutes us, that constitutes the entire human personality, we want to use that ego not only in a refined manner, not only in a sublimated manner, but to use that ego until it is stretched. By this I mean, stretched to a certain limitation where a great clarity is observed in the ego. We could use the analogy of a balloon. Now as the balloon is stretched, the rubber that makes the balloon becomes fine. When it becomes fine, greater light penetrates to it. So this means that the ego is not sublimated. Sublimating an ego might mean pushing the ego aside or giving the ego a different value. We do not want to do that. We want the ego to have its original value and not transform it into different values. We do not want to take a certain item and convert it into a different substance altogether. The rubber of the balloon must remain the rubber of the balloon. But by expanding the rubber that constitutes the balloon, by making, by stretching the rubber so that it

2. UK 78- 35 could become fine, and when it becomes finer and finer, it becomes more transparent. And when it becomes more transparent, the greater the light of the spirit could shine through. So the ego is to be preserved and not destroyed. Fine. Now when the ego is stretched through our meditational practices, through the understandings and realisations we receive, and as the light filters through it more and more clearly, the ego assumes a different form. It is not destroyed. It is not sublimated, but it is brought to its greatest potential. The same ego is brought to its greatest potential in its own refinement. Now man could never exist as an embodied being if he did not have an ego. Ego is that which gives man a sense of individuality. And if man wants to live in this body, he has to have a sense of individuality but an individuality at its finest level, where that individuality becomes so refined and transparent. Ego can be very gross, could be very opaque, where light cannot shine through and the same ego could be so refined and stretched that the fullness of the light comes through. It is only, it is only when man discards the mind and the body entirely, then only the light would remain. But for practical purposes as householders, as living, breathing human beings, this is an impossibility. If any man tells you that 'I am egoless', that is not the truth, for even the highest realised man will still have a trace of ego in a very refined manner and so refined that the glass is so clear that the entire light of Divinity can shine through, but the transparent glass is there. Good. So, the whole process would be to clean up the glass and to make it transparent. That is the process. And by making the glass transparent, the glass assumes an invisible form because the powerful light is shining through. You will notice this in many things where if you put a strong beam of light behind a piece of glass, you don't see the glass. You must have heard of many people walking through a glass door. They don't see the glass. Yes. I've been into one shop once and they had to put a red - you know these doors without frames, just glass - they had to put a sticker on it so that from a distance you could see that ‘Look there is glass there and I have got to open it’. Now that happens, that happens in the refinement. So it is not a question to repeat again of annihilation or sublimation. Annihilation means destroying that glass. And when you destroy the glass, you are destroying your entire personality. And man cannot exist without being an individual being, without being a personal being. But with the light shining so powerfully through, through the clear glass, what could be observed is the light only and not the glass, the light only and not the glass. Now that does not mean that there is no glass. And man finds fulfilment in life when the totality of light shines through, inspite of there being a glass. This means the universal self shines through the individual self because the individual self has been cleansed and refined. Now its only when the body and mind is totally discarded at the time of death, at the time of death of a realised man, like my guru, that it would all merge away and at that time, the intense heat

3. UK 78- 35 of that light disintegrates the glass, disintegrates the ego and it goes back into its original vibrations. The householder has to be conscious of his individual self. If he is not conscious of his individual self, he will not be able to relate to his environment. He will not be able to relate to his wife, children, his beloved, his friends because there the individuality must exist. Now if individuality does not exist at all in everyone, then the whole purpose of life is lost. Then you do not need to serve humanity because you are not an individual anymore. It is only the unit that tries to get together or become one with all the units around him and form a whole. Good. So to be able to live responsibly, the ego factor in man, the personality of man is necessary. Firstly, if you, if there was a thing of the entire destruction of the ego, then your whole personality would be destroyed. Your mind would be destroyed. Your thinking ability would be destroyed. You would become mind-less and body-less and only the spirit would exist which is the universal spirit and you become one with the universal spirit, not requiring mind and neither body. Then what is the purpose of having the body and the mind? That comes at a very final stage when you merge away into Divinity, into that voidless void, where you become so universal without personality, without any trace of ego and you become the entire universe. But man has one great gift, is to clarify, refine that ego, stretch that rubber so beautifully s o that it becomes so clear that the entire universe shines through him. So here there is a co-existence between individuality and universality. There is a co-existence between universality and individuality. This co-existence is so enhanced, so beautiful that you are not conscious so much anymore of the individuality and the greater emphasis is placed upon universality, yet without the distraction of the ego. We have said many times that there is nothing in this universe not even a single thought that could ever be destroyed. There is no destruction. And if you try and sublimate, you are only pushing away the ego. That little individual self, that little refined self of the self-realised man, you are just pushing it apart, away. Then where is the appreciation of Divinity? So in the final analysis the ego remains. It remains as a very fine current through which the universality flows. Very fine wire, like a radio wave, a current there all the time through which this universality flows. Now if it was the intention of Divinity to just be itself, then individuality would not be necessary and yet there is individuality. So the abstractness of universality has to be captured in concreteness. Now concreteness would have its various gradations, from the gross to the subtlest. So in all spiritual practices, in all the practices we do, the goal and aim would be to refine that ego to its subtlest aspect, to its subtlest limit, so that the full force of Divinity shines through and that for the individual is self-realisation. That means that although the small self is there, the big self is forever shining through it. And the small self assumes,

4. UK 78- 35 takes on the qualities of the big self and there is the God-man on earth. And this is the case with great men like Christ and Buddha and Krishna and Rama, that is the case. Those are the mechanics. Because as soon as you try and destroy, which is of course a misnomer, as soon as you try and destroy the individual self, you will destroy the entire universe which is impossible because the entire universe is composed of all the little individual selves that make up this whole. And if Divinity cannot exist without relativity and relativity cannot exist without Divinity. In other words the absolute becomes a nonentity if there was no relativity and relativity becomes non-existent if there was no absolute. So the ego self of man will forever remain. What we want to do is clear away the dirt and the dust from that ego, from that individual. And that is the purpose of all our practices. Now clearing away would mean leading oneself to the deeper and deeper subtler and subtler and finer and finer values of life, so that when one reaches a stage of development, all your actions becomes spontaneously good. People try to be good. There is some value in that, but the trying must be got rid of the goodness. Trying must be taken away from goodness. In the beginning stages, we try to be good. That's fine. But we reach a stage where goodness remains on its own without we trying. That is the aim. That is the aim. And in this aim, and in this path, in this progress one reaches the subtlest level of oneself, where entire Divinity just shines through. Now when it comes to a great teacher, an Avatar, an Incarnation who has come to teach the path for people to reach this level, he has taken upon himself this individuality. If you can picture to yourself an ice cream cone, from the broad end where he exists, he brings himself to the narrow end of the cone to assume, to take unto himself this individuality. And individuality necessary has ego. Now ego is a very good word but so, so misunderstood. The ego that people normally talk about is the grosser ego and not the refined ego. The refined ego is on the level of superconsciousness where its constituent is Sattvic force, pure force, the force of light. That still does not alter the fact that it is not an ego. It is still an ego. It is still an ego. But this at its subtlest level of the superconscious mind, it is in direct contact with absolute. In other words it is the clearest reflector of the absolute and that light is reflected to the world. So the Avatar or the Incarnation by will, he can merge away into unity, into the absolute where nothing remains of him, but he very consciously because of the need of the universe, because of the need of the world, he assumes form. And that is why the great Sages have come in the forms of Christ and Krishna and Buddha etc. That is why they have come. Now just imagine coming from that universal vastness into the small limited body. Now there is the paradox, where a man can remain in a small limited body and yet be entirely universal, where he's here, there and everywhere,

5. UK 78- 35 expressing himself in a very tangible form. So here that which is intangible becomes tangible. That which is absolute becomes relative. That is the beauty of it. And when one realises, when one proceeds to the finer and finer levels of the ego, then conflicts automatically resolve themselves. By trying to resolve a conflict, you are creating a greater conflict. The very idea of the resolution of a conflict is the seed of another conflict. Because two things are required to create a conflict, to create this friction. Fine. Now the friction itself is a conflict. Firstly, two objects are at opposition to each other and with the two objects coming in touch with each other, it creates a friction. Friction is another conflict. Now the friction produces around itself or attracts round itself all the dust of the two pieces of wood that are rubbed together. And that in turn engenders more and more conflicts. The only way out is to refine the ego through spiritual practices, through self help and then if those two things are done, gurushakti is there, automatically on its own. It comes running without asking. Open the window, the fresh air just enters, you do not need to invite it. That is how conflicts are erased. So, this means that to be able to erase conflicts, it is not necessary to annihilate the ego. See. To erase conflicts, it is not necessary to annihilate the ego because the ego is beyond the level of annihilation. And in the refinement of the ego, leading us to its finer levels, the grossness that was there is never destroyed too, but it is discarded so that that grossness goes out and meets up with a similar kind of grossness. That is how the ego self purifies itself. Purification is the discarding of the grossness that is there. It is not a question of annihilation. Every wrong thought that a person thinks is never destroyed. It floats away in the atmosphere. And where there is a similar negativity, it would go and attach itself to that. When a good thought emanates in a man's mind, it is never destroyed too. But when you come to a far more finer thought then the previous good thought, forever existing in the universe, attaches itself to its similar kind. So look at the help man receives when he brings his ego-self or his mind-self to a far purer subtler level. Every pure thought you think, do know that the energy of ten other pure thoughts are being attracted to you and strengthens the purity that you by effort have brought upon yourself. This whole universe is so composed that everything helps everything. Even the human body, if you cut your finger, you'd find the various corpuscles - are they white, Sybil, that comes to heal? Yeah - the white corpuscles from the body would rush to the wound to help to heal the wound, an automatic process. Your mind has not called upon the white corpuscles to come and heal. No, it has not, but without even you knowing, they rush to the troubled spot and helps. Similarly in everything in the universe, this is happening. In this universe there is always, the world strives, the universe strives to a balance, to a balance, to a balance all the time. Do you know that in this world there could never ever be more than seven self-realised people. If there were more than seven self-realised people, this whole world, this whole universe would go into imbalance. And too much good is

6. UK 78- 35 also an imbalance, not in man himself but in the universal self. So, the whole universe as the individual self is forever trying to preserve a balance. And that balance in very simple terms is called tranquillity, tranquil waters where the waves, the ripples have subsided. Good. And when the waves, the ripples subside, conflict ceases because one wave is created by the momentum of another wave. They are there all the time. If you look at the sea very carefully or superficially first , you'd find the wave moving from over there to over there reaching the shore. That is not really happening, you know. The waves are just there all the time, they are not moving. They are just going up and down, up and down, up and down, giving the illusion that that portion of water is moving from there to there. Similarly, that is what happens in this universe. There is motion all the time. The motion is there, but the motion is self-contained there on the spot, now and here. So, when it comes to resolving personal conflicts, one has to make effort to take the ego or the mind to a more subtler level and the problem gets resolved. And the best and the easiest way to take ourselves to the subtler level of the mind, to the refined section of the ego, is through our spiritual practices. The easiest way, and if that is backed up by a conscious effort, the process becomes smoother and easier. And it is the action of man that brings his consciousness to the troubled areas, the troubled areas of conflict. And that is the royal road to get rid of conflict. If a man tries consciously to get rid of his ego, he is strengthening the ego, he is deluding himself. What is deluding what? The ego is deluding the ego because the ego too as the mind has various sections. The ego too as the universe, as Divinity combined to relativity is nothing else but a continuum from the grosser to the subtler. So the whole process, the whole process of man or the universe is to reach the subtlest level of being. And when one reaches the subtlest of relativity, he does not need to seek being. He is being. In other words this whole journey, this whole journey, then you will find that this whole journey has been no journey. From silence we come and to silence we reach again. Where have you gone? Nowhere. From whence cometh thou my friend and where goest thou? Nowhere. Nowhere. It is only the dross, the dirt accumulated over the centuries, as that atom progressed and swirled through the universe, it picked up all the dust because it combined itself with all various elements in the universe. And having the free will, he could have at that time discarded the elements that clouded his vision. But no, he did not. Some of them were very pleasurable. So all the pleasure found has to be repaid in some way, in conflict. Every pain you have, remember for sure, that you will have an equal amount of pleasure in some way or the other. Because pain cannot exist alone. It has to be accompanied by pleasure. The rise of the wave will have its trough, is that the word? Trough, trough, trough. Yes. Yes. It will always be there. It will always be there and it is only the refined ego or the realisation of the deeper levels of the ego that will make us not feel all the pleasures so intensely, and all the pains so intensely. So there too we come to an equilibrium. That is the secret to find equilibrium between pain and pleasure. And when that equilibrium is found,

7. UK 78- 35 there is no conflict. Because really speaking conflict is the clash between pain and pleasure. One part of oneself thinks of a certain pleasure, the other part would think of its opposite. Always. A woman puts on a beautiful dress, one hundred and fifty pounds. Good. She will find pleasure in wearing that dress of a hundred and fifty pounds, but if she is put in circumstances where she does not have the dress of a hundred and fifty pounds, then remember that the pleasure that could have been provided by that hundred and fifty pounds, the pleasure, pain will balance it, always. So the whole universe functions, functions, functions on the principle of creating a balance. Sometimes it occurs when there is a disturbance in the balance. And then because of the disturbance in the balance, a force is attracted that comes age after age as the Gita says to bring about the balance. And that too is never so lasting. That is why these Avatars have to come again and again. A momentum is set up. A balance is created. But that too because of man's nature, man's warring nature not with nations, that is not so important, man's warring nature within himself that creates the imbalance. And then again after a few thousand years, he comes again and brings a balance, gives it a push up, gets rid of a lot of conflicts, produces new understandings of what conflict is all about. And then again the wave goes down the trough, more conflicts to be raised again. Now this has been going on eternally. Where do we stand in it? We are the entire universe, for an eternity is always in a state of flux. And if anyone dreams of bringing the whole world to the age of some kind of enlightenment where they will just be peace and peace and peace all the time, that is a pipe dream. I wonder what they used in the pipe. (Gururaj laughs). Yes. The whole problem of eradicating conflict lies with man himself in his individual capacity. And if it lies within himself in his individual capacity, then ego is necessary because ego is that which produces consciousness. If the ego was not there, you would not be aware of conflict. And the whole constitution of the universe is made up of conflict and that is why the universe keeps on going. I mean any law of mechanics will tell you that there has to be opposing forces to make the wheel go round. So this will always be there, always be there. So what do we do? We use the ego and we refine it. We make it pure or we make it more transparent until the light shines through it completely and not only enlightens us, but enl ightens all that which is around us. The lamp burns not for its own light, but moreso to cast light around itself. The sun shines because it is its nature to shine, but moreso so that could give heat and warmth and comfort to those that are cold. The beautiful Banyan tree grows to give shade to the wayfarer that is weary. Make use of that, make use of that because it is by that rest that conflicts too are resolved. It is by that rest. And that rest is provided through our practices. That rest is provided where we feel a certainly tranquillity without annihilating the ego, without trying to perform that which is impossible. There are certain laws that are there. Water runs down a hill and not up a hill. These laws are there. They are eternal laws. The ego is there. After all what is the ego, but a manifestation of Divinity that just got mixed up, that just

8. UK 78- 35 got mixed up. That's all. And then of course comes karma and its various ramifications for it being mixed up. So if the Manifestor is eternal, then the manifestation must be eternal too, however it is modified, however it is mixed up. So what we have to do is to unmix the mixing. And that is called refinement of the ego. Gururaj. An hour ..... Next question? Questioner. ...... a question about....... (Inaudible) Gururaj. Yes, by all means do. Gururaj. Would you like to speak in the mike? Questioner.(Cont’d) I just don’t understand it. If the ego is manifested, if the manifested is eternal and you said earlier that the ego eventually the glass just melts, then I don't understand really how I can look forward to a future where nothing that I can be aware of anytime between now and then is going to be carrying on? Gururaj. What do you want to carry on with? Questioner.(Cont’d) Well I don't know it’s a long way ahead maybe, but that's time anyway. I don't really understand at all. Gururaj. Did you get the question? I just can't get the gist of the question, Questioner.(Cont’d) No, it’s - I Gururaj. Perhaps my understanding is limited. Questioner.(Cont’d) Well, I - the manifested is eternal because it's come from the unmanifested which is eternal. Gururaj. Yes. Beautiful.

9. UK 78- 35 Questioner.(Cont’d) So the ego must be eternal. Gururaj. Yes. True. It is. Questioner.(Cont’d) So, what you were saying that an individual is reabsorbed into the universe, becomes the universe Gururaj. Very true. Questioner.(Cont’d) So what is universal ego? Gururaj. Isn't the question about what happens to the ego of a self-realised man when he dies? Questioner.(Cont’d) Yes. That's what I'm asking. Gururaj. Oh. Thank you very much (Gururaj laughs) Beautiful. What happens to the ego of the self-realised man when he dies? Good. A self-realised man merges away into the absolute. Now to be able to merge away into the absolute, there has to be no trace of the individual 'I', never mind how refined it is. So in the heat of the absolute - this is using th e word poetically of course - in the power and the heat of the absolute, the finest trace of the ego disintegrates. And it disintegrates and joins itself up with the various other elements at its own level. That is it. That is it. Because when the mergence takes place, he becomes the universe. Now when we talk, when we talk of the total refinement of the ego, that ego is so extended that it is as vast as the universe. Now, when mergence takes place, total mergence with the absolute, then to the absolute there has been no ego. The universe is a dream. The universe is a dream. For the purposes of relativity, the universe is real. But when we reach the absolute, nothing else exists but the absolute. You see? So it depends from what angle we look at it. Now this can only be appreciated fully if one has reached the absolute. Until then we are still swimming round in the sea of relativity. Some people have reached finer levels, finer limits of it, but it is not the completeness of it. By reaching, by refining the ego to that extent where one encompasses the entire universe, you have only reached to the level of the totality of the universe. Some people call it the Personal God. Some people call it Christ consciousness. Some people call it Krishna consciousness. And yet the Impersonal God is beyond all consciousness, because consciousness too is limiting. Consciousness too is within the realms of relativity, while the absolute just is. Because consciousness requires to be conscious. Even the purest consciousness requires to be

10. UK 78- 35 conscious of itself. And immediately consciousness becomes conscious of itself, ripples start, ripples start at the finest level of the ego. While the absolute is beyond the ego and even beyond (a baby cries - you're right son) while the absolute self is beyond ego, beyond the finest level of the refined ego. It is beyond the level of consciousness where it does not need to be conscious of consciousness. It is just an 'Isness'. The electricity current that burns in these lights is not conscious of itself as being electricity. It is only the usage of it that tells us this light burns because of electricity. So you see it’s a realm beyond human conception and one that has not realised that, can only know about it. And that's what the Universities do, they tell you about a thing, but not what a thing really is. Because that 'Isness' has to be experienced and it is experienced by itself, for itself, without having the experiencer. And that is what is meant by 'Isness'. You just are. I am that I am, no qualifications, no adjectives. That's what it is. That's what it is. Good. Was I a bit too technical there, now? .Questioner. ........... (Inaudible) Gururaj. I don't think we should talk of Pavitranandaji. Should we? Perhaps later, we'll see. Any more questions? Questioner. Guruji, could you talk to us about the children please, as there are so many parents here? Could you talk to us about how we should be with our children as meditators? Gu ruraj. Fine. Yes. That's nice. Yes. Good. Beautiful. Beautiful. How should we be with our children? There's only one way to be, is to be. Yes. How to be with our children? Now does that imply how to treat our children? Questioner. Perhaps to explain things about what we’re doing. Gururaj. It's actually very simple. You have to explain according to the level of the child's understanding. The level of a child's understanding would be to show it that there is a goodness somewhere. There is a goodness. A child understands what goodness is. A child understands. You give, you treat the child well and the child will say 'Oh Mummy is so good to me'. Oh yes. So they have an idea of what goodness is. And by wanting to explain to children what meditation is, one needs to tell them that this makes a person good. ‘You see why Mummy is so good to you is because (General laughter) you see why mummy is so good to you is because she meditates and she is good to herself. That is

11. UK 78- 35 why she is good to you. And every bit of goodness you feel from Mummy is just an expression of herself’. And that goodness is transformed into the love the Mummy has for the child, and the child feels that. The child does not need any intellectual analysis. I wish I could become a child again. I am one really. Yes. Yes. Of course I am. Yeah. Because we just feel, me and the little children around me, of which I am one, we just feel the goodness, we just feel the love in that innocence. That is what the child has, innocence. It does not require any intellectual explanation of the workings of the mind and the ego and how it transcends itself and refines, (General laughter) how it transcends itself and refines itself. No. No. No. No. No. No. What is the best way to teach a child is by example. If I love my child, the child will know immediately, in the purity of its innocence. It feels it. It experiences it. And what greater knowledge could there be except by experience? There has to be experience and experience is true knowledge. The rest is mental gymnastics. Good. But nevertheless, the child develops the mind and a curiosity develops in the child. So that curiosity must be satisfied in the simplest way. That I meditate and I feel so nice inside me and because I feel so nice inside me, I can love you so much more because I have all that love inside me to give to you. That is the practical way. The practical way is to develop that closeness with the child. That communication does not even require words. That, the child needs more than verbal communication. But then every human being including a child operates on different levels. It requires verbal communication. It requires the communication of the heart, which is expressed through love, and everyone feels that. There's no person in this world that cannot understand the language of love. Everyone does. Sometimes someone pulls the blind, the shutter, but eventually the light filters through. And moreso a child, being so innocent, feels it in a far greater intensity than a grown up can because it is innocent. That is why the Bible also says ‘Be childlike in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven', which is very true. And that is the real communication. That is the real teaching any child can receive. That is the moulding of the child, moulded in love. And when a child is moulded in love, when a child's innocence becomes imbued with the power of love of the parent, what a wonderful well balanced child that could be. It is a great concept and it continues into such a beautiful continuum, where the child can encompass all that love within himself because of the closeness, because of the communication the mother, in this case the mother, has created with the child. And that is how children should be brought up by the mother, not necessarily in boarding schools and nannies. That is the ideal. But of course circumstances alter cases, but the ideal is the constant togetherness, is the constantly being in touch in the communication with the child, touch, physical touch, heart touch, verbal touch. A child understands touch

12. UK 78- 35 more than anything else. It wants to be touched. And by touch it feels the warmth. When a mother feeds a baby, what does it enjoy more? Not the milk from the mother's breast, but the closeness to the mother. That it enjoys more. The milk is there to satisfy the hunger. That's fine. That's physical. But that closeness that is there. Every time you feed a child, do not think that you are just feeding the stomach. Every child is fed with that deep love, where every drop of milk pours into the child's mouth not as a substance only, but as an expression of the love and warmth you have in you. What a child? What a mother? What a mother? That is to be developed. That is what society needs. You don't start off children giving them philosophical knowledge when they are at University level. No. They are to be started there from infancy. And the most important years up to five, seven years, where the whole child's mental attitude, emotional stability is formulated. Proper way of bringing up the child is so simple, love and demonstrated love, because the child feel instinctively because of its innocence the love pouring to it. And it is helped more by demonstration, by the closeness the mother has with the child, a physical closeness. So, here too thought and action. Love comes out as a thought and the action is in wrapping the child within your folds. Beautiful. Okay. Is it? Yes, three minutes to one. Good. Fine. END


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