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1. UK 79- 38 Questioner. Guruji, would you speak to us further on the nature of evil? You have said that good and evil are relative, that the only reality is 'Is-ness'. Is evil simply a by-product of human life on earth or are there also powers of evil as personified for instance by Satan in Christian mythology? Gururaj. Beautiful question. Now, we've just been waiting for you. Take your time. The entire universe is from time immemorial in a state of flux. There are powers of contraction and expansion all the time. Without the powers of contraction and expansion this universe would come to a standstill because there would be no motion and it is the very motion in the universe that makes the universe, that keeps the universe alive. So this very motion can also be equated as the life force in the universe. Now, life force operates on different levels; grosser levels and of course at the subtlest o f the subtlest level. Now, in this state of flux, in this state of contraction and expansion, there are three factors involved, which the Sanskritists call Tamas, Rajas and Sattva. Tamas is described as the forces of inertia or darkness while Sattva is described as the forces of light. So wherever there is light, there has to be darkness. When you light a lamp, at the bottom of the lamp you will find the shade. Now, when the lights shine brightly in this hall, that does not mean that the light, the darkness has disappeared. The darkness is still there and as soon as we put off the switch, the darkness becomes perceivable. So this force of light and of darkness is forever existent. One cannot exist without the other in the relative sphere of life. Good. Now what is the relative sphere of life? From the grosser level of say, a stone to the highest level of man, god- man, these forces are there. But what has happened is that at the very grosser level, the darkness assumes a prominence, so more darkness is perceived; while at the higher level, the Sattvic power or the power of light is dominant and that is at a subtler level bringing light. So, Tamas and Sattva will always be there and activated by this flux of the universe called Rajas. So there will always be an interplay between dark and light, darkness and light. And this in theological terms we call Satan. Now there are so many contradictions in all the Scriptures of the world, seeming contradictions, apparent contradictions, yet they contain a very deep meaning. On the one hand we say that God, or Good, is omnipresent then where is there any place for anything else. So then that brings us to the question that if God, or Good, is omnipresent, where does this evil come from? There are Philosophies in the world that would tell you that you proceed from a lower truth to a higher truth and that there is in reality no evil. But that is not our experience of daily life. We experience evil in our daily lives and what is that evil that we experience? The evil that we experience are things that are not in conformity with the laws of nature. In other words they are anti-nature, you can call them anti-Christ. So those we interpret as evil.

2. UK 79- 38 Now evil has another interpretation: that which is not harmonious to ourselves, that we regard to be evil also. Now, things that are harmonious to ourselves we regard to be good, but now this would constitute a variety of criteria. What is good for one person might not be good for another person. So for the person the same object might prove to be evil, while for another person the same object would prove good for himself. So, in the relative plane of existence, good and evil is a matter for the individual himself on the path of evolution. And yet we have religions putting forth injunctions of ‘Thou shalt not’. Now that is a general guideline. A general guideline to guide people for the betterment of themselves, so that ignoring evil and allowing the light, by good thinking, good action, allowing the light of Sattva to permeate our lives. So, what we do is, we do not analyse evil but we replace it with good. We do not analyse darkness but we replace it with light. Evil does exist. You can call it Satan or Racksheses, as the Sanskritists would say. You can call it by any name you like. Any opposing force which creates friction is regarded to be evil. And yet you would find an evil person in this world and if you have the integration within yourself, you will no t see him to be evil. You will condemn the action but not the actor. There is a book by Victor Hugo, 'Les Miserables', where it says when this man was chased because he stole a loaf of bread and he was haunted by the police and he took refuge in a church. Now, to eat, he saw a pair of candlesticks there and the priest saw him taking it and he said ‘My son, life is made to give and not to take’ and this man was pardoned. What did the priest of the church see in the man? He saw the real man who is potentially good, potentially Divine but because of a certain necessity, he tried to steal those candlesticks. Yet this is no justification, but to see evil is to see within one's own mind. If the perception of evil is subjective rather than objective, the vilest person on earth can be loved just as deeply as the most saintly person on earth. So, as we say, ‘The beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder’. And, and yet when we reach that level of good, all evil for us exists, all evil still exists but we view it in an entirely different light. This world as we know it, in this relative sphere of existence, these two forces will always be there. For it is the very act of evil that encourages good and vice versa. It is because of the sun that we have rain. Now how this all this come about? If from goodness only goodness can come, where has this evil come from? Now the analogy I am very fond of using is this: that it is through the sun that water, in the form of vapour, rises to the sky. That very sun has caused the clouds which obscures the sun and we find darkness down here. And yet the sun is forever effulgent, unaffected. But we that are down here find the darkness because the sun is obscured by the clouds and yet the clouds themselves, the sun itself has produced the clouds.

3. UK 79- 38 So, when it comes to a matter of relative creation these forces, opposing forces has to exist. Electricity cannot exist; this light cannot burn without the positive and the negative current. They have to co-exist to produce the light in the bulb. So, if people ever dream of a time when there shall be no evil upon earth, that would be totally impossible because life itself, this world itself is made of polarities; it has to have the polarity, the north pole and the south pole, it has to be there. But individually man can progress to the level of the centre of the stick, on one side there is good, one side there is evil. It is forever like a seesaw going up and down. But when man integrates himself, he reaches the centre and reaching the centre, the see-saw for himself as an individual, will stop having the motion. So evolution and reaching that stage of going beyond good and evil has to be done on an individual basis. Now this is not a denial of good and it is not a denial of evil. They are there within a certain plane of existence. Within this particular dimension this polarity exists, but if we, through our spiritual practices, meditational practices rise above the polarities of this dimension, we immediately enter a different dimension from where we perceive things in a different light. When we walk through the streets of London, we might find some of the streets with old dirty buildings and especially when the strikes are on, the garbage people, you will find all the streets so dirty. But if you stand on a high plateau, at a high place, it would look so beautiful, you do not see the dirt, you do not perceive the dirt and yet it is still there. So this concept of Satan is, as you said, a mythological portrayal of a truth that cannot be denied. So this will be there. Now, when we apply this principle to our personal lives you’d find a person complaining 'Oh this is happening to me and that's happening to me and all the bad things are coming to me all the time. Where is all this joy and happiness that is supposed to be there in me? Divinity resides in me I admit that, so where is all this coming from?' Now, okay, Divinity resides in you as all this joyousness but that has been superimposed by that which is not conducive to nature and that which is not conducive to nature we call satanic. Now where does this superimposition come from? That has been created by the greatest gift given to mankind and misused, the gift of freewill. Now in the Cosmic range of things nothing could ever happen without the Divine will but within the smaller range of human existence there is this factor of freewill. And if we use that gift given to us in a wrong way, naturally we will be creating the dirt, which obscures the real joy that is within us. And that, of course, the Eastern Philosophers call karma and performing all kinds of karmas, they are impressed upon the mind, which are called samskaras, samskaras or impressions. Now over ages and ages of time these samskaras that are impressed upon our psyche or upon our subtle bodies has to be worked out. The dirt that has been superimposed upon the clean pane of glass has to be washed away. Now, in the washing away of this dirt there is also some friction involved. That is why, when man is asked to do some good,

4. UK 79- 38 there is a resistance in him. There is an inborn fear of friction, because the dirt came on the clean pane of glass through friction and having had the experiences of friction, he resists, he resists cleaning the glass. And that is what is meant in the Scriptures when they say 'Resist not evil', that is one interpretation. So, if we effortfully clean the window which requires a bit of friction, so we go through a period that might not be so happy but as the window is gradually cleaned and more and more light filters through, our life becomes more and more joyous. That is the way. Do not ever think that of all the actions performed, someone will come along with a magic wand and destroy all the karma. That is impossible and totally against the laws of nature. So, that which is called Satan or evil is there but we have to get rid of the impressions that we have created in our minds, so that the pond of the mind could become still and clear. Now, these impressions in the mind that we have, are always warring against each other. Now, all impressions are not bad impressions, there are also good impressions. You have done something good, everyone has done something good at some time or the other and everyone has done something bad at some time or the other. As the saying goes 'There is no saint that has not had a past and there's no sinner that will not have a future.' So, we effortfully, and effortless meditation, we use these to clean away those samskaras, good and bad. Good samskaras are pleasure producing but remember that they are temporary; they have no permanent value. You do something good, you do one pound in weight of good, you will be returned with one pound of pleasure, one pound of joy. But that wears away, once you have used it up, it is gone, and then as the conflict in the mind occurs between good samskaras and bad samskaras, that is when we start feeling uncomfortable. One side of you pulls this way and the other side pulls that way. What to do? What are we going to do there, because some people don’t even have the power of discrimination between good and evil? Most people do when it comes to simple things - they know that this is good and that is bad, but on a subtler level they cannot discriminate as yet because they have not reached the subtler levels of their mind. Now we all know that we use only ten percent of our minds if not less and all that is within the range of that ten percent, we can discriminate. Within that range we can think and analyse that this is good and that is bad. But samskaras, which come up to the conscious level of the mind, those we can discriminate. But underlying the conscious level and the various sub-stratas of the subconscious level of the mind, there the samskaras battle most; the of between good and evil. Actually, the whole of the Bhagavad Gita is based on this. You could regard the Kauravas, the bad elements, and the Pandavas, the good elements to be mythology, if you wish to call it that, but the underlying meaning is the battle between good forces and evil forces that is not from outside but from within ourselves.

5. UK 79- 38 So that is why spiritual practices are so much more recommended and all the more reason why we should do them, for then we can delve deeply into deeper layers of the mind, where we can explore the deeper regions of the mind. And with the vibrational factors involved in meditation, many of those samskaras can be dissolved and not allowed to come to the surface level where the conflicts become conscious. Now that is where we disagree with modern psychology. Modern psychology tries to dig deep into the sub-conscious mind and bring it to the conscious level and then they start analysing the various conflicts that are taking place on the conscious level. Now this could be very confusing to a person and of course they only go back to childhood level. But problems of good and evil in a person's life is not necessarily from the time of birth. People talk of traumatic experiences at the time of birth and that creates a certain experience within ma n which he has to live through in his life. That is so minute when we measure the enormous problems man is faced with, because those traumatic experiences can be overcome overnight. So a great emphasis is laid upon things which are very trivial. The greatest emphasis should be laid upon those hidden factors within man where he has not the tools to discriminate because they are so deep down within the sub-conscious. So what we do when we meditate and dive deep within, we draw forth an energy and drawing forth this energy it overcomes the conflicts that are in the sub-conscious and we don't allow it to surface. They are dissolved there, not only by meditation but through meditation the power of grace is drawn to us, which dissolves the samskaras. And when the samskaras are dissolved and that same energy via the sub-conscious comes to the conscious level of the mind, then all our actions in life spontaneously become good. Now, when our actions spontaneously become good on the conscious level then there is a two-way action because all the thoughts of the conscious mind, all the actions - thought too is an action - they have to go back to the middle man, the sub-conscious and re-groove or re-pattern the old mode of thinking. So here what happens, that we are drawing from the Sattvic level of ourselves, from the superconscious level of ourselves and we are drawing from the conscious level of ourselves and both forces come and centre themselves in the various stratas of the sub-conscious and annihilate or rather subdue or sublimate those conflicts that are there. So therefore man does not need to be unhappy. Let there be good, let there be evil around us, fine, how am I affected? That should be the true question for himself. For in other words as the Scriptures would say 'Man know Thyself', that is said in the Bible. The Upanishads would say 'What is there by knowing which all else is known’. It’s like that in Taoism, Buddhism, Islam, Confucianism; all these major religions teach that. So another process is also taking place, by drawing from the conscious level and drawing from the super-conscious level we are centring ourselves in the subtle body and when we centre ourselves in the subtle body and awaken that which is dormant or not active as it should

6. UK 79- 38 be, then the samskaras dissolve. And then, after a while, there is no question at all of evil for all is good, all is God. You see the mechanics of it. Now, the superconscious level of man's mind is the Sattvic self, the good self of himself. That is the clear glass through which that 'Is-ness' shines through. So, man does not only transcend or go beyond his conscious mind or his sub-conscious mind or his superconscious mind, he goes beyond all that into that indefinable field which is 'Is-ness', which is 'THAT', capital T, capital H, capital A, capital T. 'THAT.' Good. Now, what is 'THAT'? 'THAT' is the Impersonal God, which has no attributes. It is a Divine fine energy that has always been, always is and always will be. That we call the Impersonal God. Now, for the Impersonal God to become personal, various stages are gone through. Now the Impersonal God does not create but it is the nature of the Impersonal God to manifest. Like as I always say 'The flower does not create fragrance’. This flower does not create fragrance. It is the nature of the flower to give of the fragrance. The fragrance is the manifestation of this flower, as heat and light is but the manifestation of the sun. So, this now has to be crystallised and it is crystallised, this manifestation is crystallised into a very subtle form of energy and this subtle form of energy that is there, which we call will. This subtle form of energy is heard as well as seen. This subtle energy, the primal energy which is the manifestation of the Manifestor is a sound. In Sanskrit, Nadbrahman; it is a sound. And the Bible says the same 'First was word and the word was with God, and the word is God.' Any separation between the Manifestor and the Manifestation. And that is how we could love our brothers as ourselves, that is how to do unto others as you would expect to be done unto thyself, only when you regard yourself to be one with your brother. Good. So, from the sound these vibrations take place because sound cannot exist without vibration. Vibration is sound. Good. As it goes through various other processes in this universe, those vibrations start congealing and that is how matter is produced. Matter is nothing else but congealed vibration or you could call it energy. There is no difference between energy and matter. It’s just a difference of subtleties. So, now when this energy becomes congealed and becomes matter in various parts of the universe and going through this propulsion we spoke about, the evolutionary propulsion, it intermixes with other matter that has also come from the same source. It is like a tree having several branches but yet the branches might appear separate but they stem from the same tree. Now these various branches or these various kinds of matter from subtler to grosser start intermingling and then from two factors, three factors are born; from three with greater intermingling, six, twelve, twelve and twelve twenty-five, and twenty -five and twenty-five, fifty-one. Like that, like that, like that, you see. That's how, that is how all the diversities are seen in the world where things seem to be diverse and yet underlying all the separate branches of the tree is but the one trunk, the one stem or the same sap that energises the entire tree and its branches.

7. UK 79- 38 So with our limited vision and using only ten per cent of the conscious mind we see the diversity and we fail to see the unity underlying all the diversity. And when we fail to see the unity underlying all the diversity, we see the good and the bad. We see the good and we see the evil. And because the diversity is there, it cannot be destroyed because it is the nature within the flux of the universe, where the flux of expansion and contraction, greater and greater diversities would occur. But what man has to find when he says he wants to find God - what he has to find is the unifying factor amidst all the diversities. Now, when we say that good and evil must exist and they do co-exist, that is no justification for doing that which is wrong. If it is inadvertently done, as we said this morning or unknowingly, innocently done, it does not create the impression or the samskara in the mind which has to be worked through. But knowingly, if we do something that is not right, naturally it would rebound. Whatever you sow, you reap, everyone knows that. So, there is only one way out and that is to rise above and when one rises above, you could truly say 'In the world but not of the world' - that when you exist amongst all the diversities and you walk alone in the path of truth. And when you start walking alone in the path of truth, you go beyond loneliness, for there is no loneliness in that aloneness. See the difference there. There is no loneliness in that aloneness because you have now embraced all of it within your bosom. Then that calm comes, that tranquillity comes, that peace comes, the peace that passeth all understanding. You don't need to analyse anymore then, but is this good or is this bad, it is just accepted. It is just accepted and in that acceptance, one develops all the moral values that religion talk about, humility, kindness, compassion and then like the story of the three monkeys, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Do you see? So you stop seeing evil, that is the aim, for I am my brother's keeper. If I see evil in my brother then surely I am evil, for my brother is none else but a reflection of myself. And that is how misinterpretations occur. A person does a certain act, it could be very good but your mind, your experiences tell you that, ‘Oh that man is bad, he has done this or he has done that’. Who are you to judge if that is good or evil? 'Judge ye not that you shall be judged', do the Scriptures not say that? Who am I to say that the action performed by a particular person is evil, how can I judge? That is the attitude that develops in an integrated personality. Therefore in every talk I would repeat over and over again, meditate, meditate, meditate. Meditate. You see. Once that integration is found, which is a gradual process - I have heard of people here in England that you go and listen to a talk and in two hours you come out enlightened - don't believe it, don't go for it, don't believe it. The rate of progress, the rate of integration is totally dependent upon yourself and the more you practise, the greater the momentum. The greater the momentum, the more the grace comes to you and fast. I love grace; she is a lovely lady. She is lovely. Yes. So this is what happens. Its so, so simple.

8. UK 79- 38 So, in spite of there being good and evil on earth, we accept it, we accept it. But accept everything with a kindly eye. For it is my eye that sees what is good and what is evil. Yah, yes. And after all you might not pass this way again. A visitor to a country went to see a guru. So he comes and sees me and we started talking a bit, and of course I said, ‘Please sit down, it is a rickety old chair. Sit down’. Came to the home, I had offered him tea - he had tea. He says, ‘Guruji, where's all your furniture?’ So I asked him, ‘Where is your furniture?’ He was astonished. He says, ‘Look, I am just a visitor, a tourist. I am just passing by’. That's what he says. So I told him, ‘I am also just passing by’. (General laughter) So you see we might not come this way again. There are hundreds of worlds like these, thousands. There ar e humans like us on so, so many planets in this vast scheme of things and perhaps for certain experiences that you might need to evolve, you might go to another planet after you discard your body. So while we are here let's do the best of it. Let us love and love and love, always a good thought for someone and never an evil thought, although evil might exist, so what, who cares? Let the devil take care of evil, that's his business. We mind our business because we are from God, of God, with God and eventually we merge into God. It’s eleven o'clock. You must rest. Namaste. Yes, yes, there are some announcements. END

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