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1. UK 80- 14 Gururaj. Good. Now let us hear some of your earth shattering philosophical questions. Questioner. Guruji, is it possible to have a person who is a highly evolved soul and yet outwardly the personality does not portray this, i.e. the personality seems weak or shadowed? I ask this because many people are under the impression that when the soul evolves, one grows holistically in a more balanced way? Gururaj. Very true. Okay. Good. The gist of the question is this that if a person is highly evolved, why should he outwardly remain very, very ordinary. Now I have said this to you before that you have to become more ordinary than ordinary in order to become extraordinary. To a highly evolved person, this physical body or its actions have no bearing upon himself. I think I said it this morning that he is beyond it all. Now this, you could use the examples of great men that lived in this world. If you really want a true picture of the life of Buddha, read 'Siddharta', a book by Herman Hesse. Herman Hesse has been one man, although he has put it in novel form, has really caught the real Buddha or very nearly, the real Buddha. Take the life of Krishna, he was very ordinary, he was a statesman, he manipulated wars for the benefit of mankind. He had fourteen hundred Gopis and sixteen thousand and eight wives. Okay. Take the life of Jesus who was a very ordinary man, as we all know, he dined with the liberals and the conservatives of his time and those that were regarded to be untouchable. And he also had a lovely booze up at times. Now how ordinary is that? Take modern times, modern saints, Raman Maharshi had cancer and so did Ramakrishna who lived at the turn of the century. So when a person gets to a certain stage of evolution, where he goes beyond the limitations of the body, he does not need or neither does he care for the body or the mind. And yet there is one beauty that in his ordinariness, every action he performs, everything he does, is always as a service and it rebounds, it gets put forth for the benefit of others. So to judge a highly evolved person or to judge a person who is self-realised is not within your domain. You cannot judge. You have not the ability to judge such a man. Because what instrument are you using to judge him? Your mind. You're using your mind and every mind has different amount of inches to the foot. Some minds think they're forty-six inches and the other eight inches. So because our minds have not reached the stage of those great Saints or Incarnations, we just cannot judge. If you want to see on top of a ten-storey building, you've got to stand on top of another ten-storey building. Then you will see the top. But if you look at, if you try to see the top of a tall building standing on the street, you'll have a totally distorted view of the building and more than that, you will not see the top. And that is why the Biblical injunction is this that "Judge ye not that ye be judged".

2. UK 80- 14 Now here when this injunction is put forth to the ordinary man in the street, that do not even judge, the ordinary man, what do you know of his state of evolution? What do you know of his mental or psychological framework that prompts his actions? So if this is said of the ordinary man, then how much more does it not apply to the one who is in the world yet not of the world. So it is totally wrong to judge. Ramakrishna was seen one day sitting down with a dog and sharing the food from the dog's basin with the dog. Now any Psychiatrist passing there would say this is a mad man. Anyone passing there would say this person is totally mad, you know, eating with such relish, with just as much relish as the dog. He'd be regarded mad, certified. But who can understand Ramakrishna? Because Ramakrishna saw that in that dog and myself there is no difference. The eternal spirit that resides in that dog is the same eternal spirit that is within me. And such a person can bring down his consciousness to the level of the dog. Because having being self-realised, you have a wide range. You can fluctuate from the bottom to the top and from the top to the bottom and yet not be affected by anything at all. So here Ramakrishna identified himself totally with the dog, first knowing that the spirit is one and then eating as the dog ate, he made himself into the dog although he would be seen in human form. So here a total identification occurred, a total identification between body, mind and the spirit. Now when a person achieves that in one particular sphere, he has achieved it in all spheres. In other words, he has become one with manifestation, one with the entirety of the universe. Who are we to judge? Can we really judge that? You can only judge such a person when you have become one with the universe. Otherwise it is just mental gymnastics conditioned by your conditioned mind. In other words you are using your own tape measure to judge someone that is beyond all judgement. So when you find a highly evolved person, a self-realised man acting the way he does, there might be a purpose to it. Have we ever thought of the purpose behind it? So what do we do here, we move away from judgement and we with an open mind try and find the purpose of the actions of such a man. We try and find the purpose. I remember a case where a woman phoned me and she said, "I just can't stand it anymore. I am going to divorce my husband". I says "Don't be hasty, you know these things you just don't switch on and off. If, you know, any two people that wants to make life work, can make it work." But sometimes in extreme cases because of ignorance and misunderstandings and misconceptions and not wanting to face responsibility and non acceptance of oneself and one's spouse, and this all comes from ignorance, nescience not having the understanding of life, so they want to part. So I asked her on the phone, I say "Why?" She says "Oh every night my husband spends all his time in the pub and I sit alone at home and he comes home drunk. And when it comes to weekend, on a Friday, his pay packet is invariably empty and we suffer." So I start talking to her and I told her that "What have you been doing? Is there anything in your action or thinking, words and

3. UK 80- 14 deeds that is sending him to the pub, to find his friends and while the time away? So think, do not just blame him. Do not judge him. Think of yourself first. Think, see if you have any faults in yourself. And create that atmosphere and attraction in the home where he will watch the clock - 'oh, is it nearly five I've got to reach home'. So create that attraction." Nevertheless she started on that. So I asked her "Which pub does he go to?" So she told me. So I said "I will go there tomorrow and bring him home". So I went to the pub and met him there, I knew him, chatted with him a bit and he wanted what you call a double, a double of something. I say "You know it’s a whole lot of imagination really, take a single and put in more soda water." Right. And of course he consumed not as much as he would have normally. I got him talking and we went home. Now if you had to see me coming out of the pub (Gururaj laughs) oh, I did enjoy a beer with him. Yes. Yes. Some years ago, yes. Nothing wrong with it. But if you had seen me coming out of the pub you'd say "Hey, look at that guru! (General laughter) But have you ever thought why the guru went in there in the first place. Do you see. So I told him "Have your drink, it doesn't matter, in moderation it's okay. And as a matter of fact the one or two tots you take, you can sneeze out the alcohol with one sneeze". So talking to him explaining him, got him, I got him into meditation. This happened three or four years ago and he spends more and more time at home. They even went on a holiday and they said "Oh, this is our second honeymoon". And they are very happy today. Do you see? So it is a matter of understanding. It’s not a matter of judging. And your understanding is your business, and my business is to expand your understanding. So therefore, therefore when you come across holy personages and you'd find, you'd find really, very few genuine spiritual teachers. A lot of them come from India or wherever, from China or Japan, and they just come here to do business, business, because they that there is a great awakening, a great awakening among the peoples on this side of the world to find what reality is all about. They have reached the extreme to a great extent on external things, technological progress. Everything is just push button nowadays. They have reached all that. So not finding satisfaction in all that, they are turning inward to find reality there and that is the proper place to turn really and it has been said in our Scriptures for thousand and thousands of years. Fine. Now these so-called teachers come along and take advantage of the situation because people are mostly gullible. They are very gullible especially when they cannot find an answer to their problems, then they grab any old straw like a drowning person. Now that is totally wrong and in that aspect I agree with you. I agree with you. Because a true teacher and a false teacher, you can very easily without judging, without analysing, you can very easily feel, because from a true teacher there is a certain spiritual emanation that not only penetrates your mind but goes deep within your heart and a certain expansion is felt.

4. UK 80- 14 The greatest teachings of the Buddha was done in total silence. He used to sit still and his chelas used to be around him and he never used to say a word. But when they left they felt to be different people. Some transformation came about, not that they became realised immediately, it’s impossible. It depends what karmic debt you have, what burden you came with into this world. But the burden is somewhat lessened. Some realisation dawns and even without saying a word, there is a spiritual emanation and that does not come through the mind or the judgement that the mind brings forth but a feeling that wells up within you that "Ah, I have felt something." And in any case, in any case you never choose a guru, the guru chooses you, always. You can go and listen to a guru, tons of them, cheaper by the dozen. Oh yes, oh yes. Everyone there that knows some little thing that dons on yellow robes and comes across to the West and starts teaching in his own way. This happens all the time. But we in our organisation are not going to be deluded. We are not going to be judgmental. We are not going to be analytical of anyone. Our basis of reference is the heart and what you feel in the heart. What transformation goes on there, that is the basis that our organisation must work on and will work on, not only in this generation but generations and generations to come. But we here in this organisation, call yourself Foundation members if you like, we have to set the pace, we have to set the Foundation. So any contrary-ness you find with highly evolved people in their daily action, what do we know about what is contrary, for to that highly evolved person, all the opposites are true. All the opposites are true. You will say that this is orange, on that side you will say that is blue or green or yellow or red, whatever colours. But then you will argue on that and you say this is definitely red and you are right. And another person says that this is green . My dress is green and you are right. Someone will say my jersey is yellow and you are right. You all are right because there is only one light, white, reflected through this prism of life according to your understanding. So the man that has gone beyond all that will say you are all right because he has gone beyond all the diversity of colours and reached the source, the source where there is pure whiteness of light. So the ordinary, lay man on the path of unfoldment has a fractional view, while the man who has risen above it all has the total view and in that when he has reached the total view of things, to him everything is right. He does not see the thief. He does not see the murderer. He does not see the cruel person. He sees nothing of that at all. He just sees the purity of the spirit. He just sees that white light. But he talks about all these various colours. He talks about the various faults and frailties and weaknesses of man, so they too could go beyond those weaknesses, so their horizon could expand, their perspective could be widened and their attitudes could change that "I'm not going to fight because this person says this is red and I say it is green". We are not going to fight. That is the attitude that would be developed. It’s

5. UK 80- 14 really a simple process. As we spoke the other day whenever it was, attitude, attitude. And once attitudes are changed then everything changes. Now judging a holy man, judging a realised person is also a matter of attitude. It’s an attitude of scepticism. Now this is necessary. This is necessary to a certain extent. It’s good to be sceptical. It’s good to have doubts because without doubt, you cannot progress. You become complacent. It is the very doubt that will give you the answer and therein in that answer, you'll find the secret of what created the doubt in the first place. So here doubt is a process of discovering your weaknesses, because your doubt is a reflection of yourself and nobody else. So as you go through an analytical process or a meditational process, the answers to these doubts come and the doubts disappear. Good. And when the doubts disappear, you'll also know why you have doubted. Take the life of the greatest Master that walked on this earth two thousand years ago, they all doubted him didn’t they. I said, I think at High Leigh, that out of his twelve closest disciples, one gave him away, one betrayed him before the crow crowed three times. One gave him away, one doubted him and ten ran away. But he, the man of love and compassion understood it all. He was not taken aback. He says "Fine, okay, it doesn't matter really. What has that to do with the purity of my spirit? And the purity of my spirit is God". And if there was no doubt, then why did everyone despise him. His own people, the Sadducees, the Pharisees, the Romans, the Jews, everyone despised him. - You mustn't mind this cough, it's only of the body. - Yes, they despised Him because of the doubts in their minds. Because here was a man who was not only a religious master but also a reformer. He was also a rebel that fought against the existing standards of those days. A man of tremendous energy, tremendous courage and bravery. So this is for all of us. It’s for all of us. But when we gain that strength through meditation and spiritual practices, we too become fearless. For when we realise some little value, perhaps not in its totalness in the beginning, but when we feel some of the experiences or even some of the transformations rather, that take place in our lives, we become fearless. We fear nothing. For what could harm, what could hurt - only the mind and body, which is so, so transient. Here today gone tomorrow. Here today gone tomorrow. Three score years and ten. What does it really mean in the scheme of eternity? It’s not even a fraction of a flicker of an eyelid and you attach so much importance to it. And in that, all thes e doubts and all these turbulences and all that creeps in. And in the end what happens? You are not hurting or harming the holy person by your judgements, you are not, you are only harming and hurting yourself. So those very doubts can be used if you have them. It can be used for a good constructive purpose. The doubt must be turned into enquiry and not just sit with the doubt. Now when you turn the doubt into enquiry, answers will dawn, realisations will come that 'I was in the presence of a Master and I feel that presence.'

6. UK 80- 14 So these are very important things to remember. These are very important things to remember and by remembering these, by living it in our daily lives, we draw upon ourselves the greatest force in earth which we in our terminology call gurushakti, or the power of grace, that eternal everlasting force. For nothing could exist without grace. Even the entire composition of your body and mind is nothing else but grace. All those vibrations, the primal vibrations, the word is nothing but grace. And when those vibrations congealed, that made up the present you, is nothing else but grace. So the holy man's duty if to awaken the holiness in you. I normally put it differently, that the duty of the external guru is to awaken the internal guru that is within you. The true guru never imposes himself upon you. He gives you all the freedom to live, gives you the freedom to live but also shows you the path, shows you how to make use of your free will so that it could merge into the Divine will. And Divine will is the path of unfoldment, of transforming man into a man- God. And you have it within you. You have it. I do not teach religion. I never will. As you can see on our board, on our emblem, I don't teach any particular religion with its dogmas and ritualisms and all that. I teach of the light that is within you. I teach of the foundation, the basis upon which you are built and how to find that basis, that is the core of our teachings. There has to be method. Just idle belief is of no value today. Blind belief in man's more sophisticated mind is of no value because the more the mind becomes sophisticated, the greater the doubt, the greater the judgements, of which we have no right whatsoever. It is a question of take it or leave it. Yes, good. And when you take, you take with determination that this is the path for me. We don't convert people because we don't have any religion to convert people to. A Christian must become a better Christian, a Hindu a better Hindu, a Buddhist a better Buddhist. Then, we have done our work, for at the basis of it all there is just one Divinity. So judge the tree by its fruits. Judge the tree by its fruits. The tree can be old and gnarled and of an awkward shape but what kind of fruit does it produce. Base, not judge, but base your - there's no word - something beyond judgement, but let your experience be based on the fruit, what kind of fruit the tree produces. I went on a tour of America last year and we had some days to spare. We had some days to spare and we toured some of the Ashrams there, listening to various gurus. I wanted to meet them, those that had specially come to the West. I saw the Ashrams and I had about five our chelas there with me. There was one Ashram, Satchitananda's Ashram where I had to give a talk and I told them that "I do not want to meet Satchitananda, I do not want to meet your guru, I'll meet him later, there's plenty of time for that. I want to meet his chelas. Ah what result has the guru produced in the chelas. That I want to see. The guru I will meet later. No hurry for that." So it means the same thing, you judge the tree by its fruit. And if I found the

7. UK 80- 14 chelas had no bit of spirituality in them or did not have their mind towards that which is good and Godly, then I would say that the guru is sham. He doesn't know what he's doing, he's taking advantage. But happily enough, it was very good. It was very good. I liked it. I was pleased. A lot more could be done. Nevertheless he works in his own way and some can run faster and some slower. So we do not judge. We have no right to but you've got the right to eat the fruit and see how sweet it is. That you must do. Okay. We've time for another question, time for another question. Gururaj. We've got fifteen minutes more. Okay. Questioner. Dear Gururaj, If one becomes increasingly aware of the illusory nature of personality and through this begins to realise that I can achieve nothing which is not Thy will, how can one then discriminate between ego games and guiding intelligence if at all? Gururaj. How beautiful. Beautiful. Why don't you bring up those things before? Save this question for tomorrow because I could speak a whole hour on that and I won't be able to do justice in fifteen minutes. So let that be the first question tomorrow. Okay. You promise. Good. Fine. So do I. (General laughter). Questioner. Could you tell us how we can stay in the moment and now, but when we find it, is that enlightenment or can we dip in and out before becoming established there and where does Turiya, the Turiya state fit into this experience? Gururaj. (General laughter). Oh yes. Are my specks there? Have you got your watch there? Now we'll just talk in minutes - fifteen forty eight (General laughter) he doesn't know the game - Norman. Fifteen forty-nine. Gururaj. That's not true. Its fifteen fifty. Norman. I'm sorry, it’s now nine sixteen. Gururaj. No. (General laughter) forget the hours, the minutes only. Ah, it’s seventeen five. Norman. No, I'm sorry your watch must be wrong, mine says seventeen fifteen.

8. UK 80- 14 Gururaj. No this is seventeen eighteen here now (General laughter) Norman. Seventeen thirty. Gururaj. Seventeen thirty-two. You're totally wrong. You've got a misconcepti on. Norman. I've got a misconception? Gururaj. Yes, its seventeen fifty eight. Norman. Eighteen. Gururaj. Eighteen ten. (General laughter) Norman. My watch hasn't got a second hand on it. Gururaj. Where is the moment? Where is the moment, for every second that passes, the moment has passed. As soon as I use the word moment, the moment is gone. Now how to live in the moment, that is the question. A moment can last an eternity and that eternity as Blake would say, an eternity in an hour. He's wrong, eternity in a moment. For the entire universe is only a flicker of an eyelid. At this very moment there are hundreds and hundreds of universes exploding somewhere. We measure time in a linear fashion, while in that dimension of Turiya, in that dimension of the beyond, there is no time and neither space. Time and space are mental conceptions. And it is needed to regulate life here on this dimension. But this dimension is not total. This dimension is very fractional. So in this dimension as soon as you say a word, that moment is gone and a new moment begins and then the next and the next and the next. So we progress in a linear fashion. So to really be able to experience eternity in a moment, one has to become one with eternity and one with the moment. And this comes about when one reaches the stage of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. That means that state of meditation, Samadhi where all your senses are totally withdrawn into yourself, where you become totally oblivious of everything around you, including your own body, where your mind merges away into the universal mind and only you, your real self

9. UK 80- 14 remains. So the body merges away, although still there, the body merges away into its various elements of which the body is composed. The mind merges away into the universal mind and you are in the state of Turiya, which means the state beyond. And there in that state is the Impersonal God and you are that. Then all this is discarded, then all this is discarded and you become yourself, the God within you. Then you will know that you are experiencing eternity and that eternity is just but a moment and the moment is the eternity. Now when we come back from that state - and how many of you have been to a Communion practice, quite a num ber. We'll do it this week, we'll do it for, we normally do one Communion practice on every Course and then you will see how I would be totally away from the body and the mind - let them merge away into the original elements and become one with that God, where the entirety of eternity is experienced. You see. And that is the indescribable state of Turiya. If you haven't been there, it is hard to explain. It's like anything else, you cannot explain colours to a blind person. You can't explain the sweetness of sugar to one who has not tasted sugar. But once you're on the path, remember there's no turning back. You will reach there. My job is not to take you to self-realisation, that you must do on your own. My job is just to put you on to the path. That's all. And that is Turiya. That is the beyond from which everything comes. That is the emptiness in that seed. When the seed was broken - the chela broke the seed and he was trying to find the meaning of life where everything originated from and his guru told him "That that which you see as nothing, is the basis of everything because that imperceptible energy created the seed and that seed created the tree". Do you see? So in that nothingness, where the self experiences the self, where the self alone, capital 'S' of course, where the self alone exists in its own full glory. And you are but manifestations of that. And that is why there could be no separati on between the Manifestor and the manifestation. Only thing we have to take the manifestation closer and closer to the Manifestor and merge into it. So that is Turiya. So simple. Don't you want to go there? Yes. So Norman's pass, time passes, life is so valuable especially the human form is so, so valuable. I don't know where the Hindus get this from, I might have said this before, that they maintain that in the process of evolution, you got to take eight thousand - eight hundred and forty thousand lives to become a human being. Go through all this long process, from the mineral to the plant, to the animal, all these various pieces until you reach the stage of man, until you start developing a consciousness, a cognisable consciousness that will take you to Divinity. So I don't know where they got these figure from. But nevertheless, the point is made that the human life is so, so valuable and if used in a proper way, you get closer and closer to your Maker. Oh yes and by using it in a proper way does not mean that you need to go through all kinds of austerities. No, enjoy yourself, but behind the enjoyment, there has to be that purity of purpose. And as you know of our

10. UK 80- 14 three 'L's', Life, Love and Laughter. That's our motto. So live, love, laugh, for life itself is a celebration. Everything is celebrating, even the flower that grows is celebrating. Even the clouds in the sky that pour down rain so that we can have food, is celebrating. Everything is. There's nothing else but celebration. All these explosions that occur in this universe, is nothing else but a celebration. So celebrate, celebrate to the glory of God. Ah. It’s beautiful, nice. END

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