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1. UK 84- 18 Gururaj. Your most profound philosophical question. Questioner. Namaste. Guruji, could you tell me to what extent a chela's like or dislike of your personality is significant in their relationship with the guru? Gururaj. Whose like or dislike? Questioner. A chela's. Gururaj. A chela. Good. Okay. Fine. A true guru never worries about people's likes or dislikes. The only thing he's concerned about is how much he loves. For to him, likes or dislikes does not matter at all. As you would read in the Bible, the gardener goes on sowing his seeds. Some seeds fall on fertile ground where they bear fruit. Some on barren ground where they don't, and some on the rocks which the birds of the air pick up. But the duty of the gardener is to keep on planting and whoever is ready to receive, will receive. Who is ever ready to open the door, that force will come in to their hearts. Likes and dislikes are matters of the mind. And anyone's likes and dislikes are dependent upon his background, his evolutionary standard, his upbringing and there are many factors involved in that. You see this every day in human relationships. Two men meet one girl and one man would love the girl very much, while the other man would not. The girl is the same. And the same applies either way. So to like someone or not like someone is an entirely individual thing. But the more you become evolved, you will start loving not only the guru, but you will love everything else. And as you start developing a greater insight also dependent upon you, then you will love your guru more and more, not because of the guru himself, but because of your standard of evolution. I would love a murderer, a thief, or a saint in equal measure, because I don't look at his exterior. A murderer could be a very, very highly spiritual person and yet because of force of circumstances something that might have happened for that moment in his mind, he might have committed something which we would call a vile deed. Therefore, forget loving the guru. Do what the Bible says, 'Love thy neighbour as thyself'. And who's your neighbour, the one that not only lives next door to you, but the entire population of the world, they are your neighbours. And that is the principle behind Ahimsa or non violence. Disliking someone is an act of the vilest form of violence. And who does it harm more? Not the object of your dislike, but it harms you more because to dislike someone, you go nitpicking and fault-finding. You cannot dislike someone if you do not find faults. So you are going out finding faults. And

2. UK 84- 18 what right has anyone at all to find faults in anyone else. Are you so faultless that you would find fault amongst others? Did Jesus not say that 'Those of you who are sinless, cast the first stone.' If you look for perfection, become perfect first and then you will find perfection in everything else. And no one that is an embodied being could be one hundred percent perfect. They could be ninety eight percent perfect and this includes all the greatest Masters like Krishna, Christ, Buddha, the lot. Because if you're one hundred percent perfect your body will disintegrate. If you are hundred per cent perfect, you won't be able to eat, drink water, you won't be able to go to the loo, because your body will then not be functioning. So the highest perfection of the highest Master is only up to ninety eight percent. But if you look at history. Look at all the great men and you will know this very well. Even Jesus was the most despised man in his time. His own people did not like him. The Romans did not like him, the Sanhedrins and the Zealots and all that crowd, no one liked him. Even his own closest disciples, the twelve. The one, he told 'You will deny me before the cock crows three times'. And the other one gave him away. And the ten when he was in trouble, ran away. Do you see? But the true Masters, they do not care at all. They do not care for any public opinion or name or fame. Because as soon as they want and hanker after name and fame, they build up an ego. And that is the greatest obstacle one could ever find, is to think of 'me and mine'. They always think of others. Do you see? Now here in history too, you'd find people like Ramakrishna, a great Sage, one of the greatest men that have walked this earth at the turn of the century. He suffered of cancer. He had throat cancer. Raman Maharshi, great Sage, his name you must have heard, also suffered of cancer of the stomach. Vivekananda suffered severely of asthma. Rama Tirtha was a very, very sickly man and so was Buddha. And Jesus was a frail sickly man also. Why? The story that physician heal thyself first, is totally false. The Physician that heals himself first is more interested in himself, while these great Masters do not care about themselves at all because their mind is always for other people. Their love is not flowing for themselves but their love is flowing for the benefit of humanity, for the upliftment of humanity. This Ramakrishna we spoke about, he said 'If there's only one man I could take to self realisation, then my mission in life has been fulfilled'. Because it’s the path of heroes. It’s a path where you go beyond likes and dislikes. Actually they are two sides of the same coin, like the hate-love relationship. There's a very fine diving line and it’s only the man of strong spiritual force that could keep love as love and not cross that thin dividing line of hate. Do you see? Disliking naturally involves hating. 'I don't like this about that, so I hate that'. There's an element of hate there. And once one has these elements then your spiritual progress stops. You have a guru, he might be a very, very ugly man. Are you looking at his face? Or have you got the strength to look at his inside. What great power he yields and most

3. UK 84- 18 times even without saying a word. Yes. And so many things happen in their lives for their own upliftment. So many things which people would call miraculous. But there are no miracles at all. You just to be able to understand the finer and finer laws of nature, as I've said many times. A hundred years ago if you tell someone a two thousand ton machine could fly through the air, they'd say you are mad. Or you could speak to someone in a moment ten thousand miles away, they would tell you, you are made. But today it is a common thing. We hear so many aeroplanes flying and we phone South Africa, America, England, Denmark, wherever, Spain. Just like that pick up the phone, dial the code and dial the number. You see? Now fifty or a hundred years ago they would have been regarded as miracles. But they're not. People through their research have found finer and finer laws of electromagnetism and radio waves etc. etc. and there you are, it’s a reality. But, then there are other kinds of realities also that work still in a much, much more subtler form. I'll give you one example of a story I heard this morning. Anne Stockingdale. Is it? Voice. Stockdale Gururaj. Stockdale. I thought it was Stock and Dale. Ah. Anne Stockdale. She gave our Susan a massage and then while we were sitting up there in the quadrangle with people, chatting and then I said 'Hey Anne, you promised me a massage' because you're travelling on the plane, getting a bit stiff. So she gave me a massage. She was in Rajesh and Jasmini's room and all that and she lost an earring. So she came back to my room and looked around, there was no earring. She went into Suzanne's room, no earring, Jasmini's room, no earring. Right. And then when she went to her room, she - this is the story I heard this morning - she heard my voice distinctly saying, 'Look under your bed'. And the ear -ring was there. Right. Do you see? Do you see? So, what law has been invoked there? The law was very simple. When she was hunting for an ear-ring, what's the sense of having a pair of ear-rings and losing one, you might as well throw the other one away. Right. So, when I heard about it yesterday, I just sat and I thought she must find it, she must find it. I don't know how she heard my voice. That, I don't know that law yet. But there it was. Do you see? So, there are so many subtler laws governing people's lives which they are not aware of. Now there are certain subtler laws that also produces likes and dislikes. Many times we meet a person and you just don't like the person. Many times you meet a stranger and you just seem to like the stranger. So, what happens is there when you just like the stranger is that, there are certain evolutionary standards in you or certain thought formations, certain thought patterns in you which are compatible to the thought patterns and evolutionary standards of the other person. So there's an

4. UK 84- 18 immediate attraction. Fine. Then you'd find, say someone disliking their guru, would be that the guru's too high and the person might be too low. They can't look up. They got a sore neck. Do you see? But the main principle is this that we must never dislike anyone. We must try and rise from even liking a person to loving a person. And love asks no questions. Sometimes when you see a couple walking down the road and you find a very pretty woman, you know walking hand in hand with someone who is very, very plain looking. You can call it even ugly. There's no such thing as ugly. But then you wonder what did she see in him. You don't need to see. You feel, you feel that beauty in the person and there's beauty in everyone. 'Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder', as the saying goes. Yes, so this is a totally erroneous idea. I am not going to make you like me. If it comes to the push, for your benefit, I will kick you backside. That's true. Yes. Not for my benefit, it will hurt my foot. I'll give a hard kick that you'll remember for life. Do you see? Yes. That is how a teacher teaches. I don't know if I told you the story where the guru was sitting round the fire with a whole lot of his chelas. And then suddenly he took out a burning ember and dabbed it on one chela's arm. So everyone were aghast. He says 'Guruji, why did you do this, you burnt you know such and such'. So they pestered him. He didn't want to answer them. But they pestered and pestered him. So he says 'Okay, I'll tell you why. The future of this person was to be burnt alive and I have averted that by just burning his, singeing his arm'. So if anyone has the pretensions of understanding a guru, become a guru first. Reach his level of spirituality, then only will y ou understand him. How many of you can understand Krishna, Buddha or Christ? None. Because you have not reached that level. How can you see on top of a ten storey building if you are not standing on another ten storey building? You're standing down here and the ten storeys are high and you will just get a distorted view. And then you will start interpreting it according to your own little stupid mind. Do you see? So therefore it is said, 'Judge ye not so that ye may not be judged'. And likes and dislikes are judgements. I dislike X, Y, Z, because I've have made judgements upon him. And that's why I dislike him. If I did not judge him, how can I dislike him? You see? So it is the weakness of our own little minds. There is an element of faith. There is. You start with faith. Everything in this world runs with faith. You go to a restaurant and food is served to you. You have faith that the food is not going to harm you. How do you know that food is not poisoned? You drive in your car and you have faith that my car will take me home tomorrow. How do you know that you are not going to have an accident or a puncture or your car might collapse? How do you know? You have faith. How do you know your husband or wife is faithful to you? But you have the trust. Because faith and trust go together. How do you know your father is your father? You've got no proof of that. Your Mum might have gone for a walk. (General laughter) Yes. Oh yes, this is the truth, yes, but you have faith in your mother. You trust your mother and she tells you, 'This is your father'. And you regard him to be your father. There

5. UK 84- 18 are, some Statistician worked it out, that there are hundreds of thousands of children in this world that regard their fathers to be fathers, and they are not their real fathers. Statistics has proven this. But you have the faith. So because of that faith you have in that father, who might not be your father, you have a beautiful cordial relationship with your father and you have respect for your father. Do you see? And as far as a guru goes, you have that faith, you have the respect. Many things are demonstrated in your life, which you experience for your own evolution. And then your love begins for the guru. That here is truly a man of God. I'm not trying to love him. You can't try to love. You just love. It’s that simple. And then later from that, you develop a knowingness. Before I used to say that my job as a guru is to awaken the internal guru within you. You've read that in many Newsletters. But I left out the most important sentence, which I thought I will tell later, as people develop more. My job is to develop that internal guru within you, but when and then discard me. But when that internal guru is fully developed within you, you will never be able to discard me because you will find that the internal guru that is awakened within you, is the same guru that started you off. Its one. The power is one. The love is one. Divinity is one. Do yo u see? And many, many people reading their Progress Forms and going through them, it is very heartening. I think I did mention that reading some of them tears welled up in my eyes. It’s so beautiful to see the flowers growing. So lovely. Yes. So, even if I should drop down with a heart attack tomorrow, I shall have no regrets because many a flower has grown so, so beautifully and many, many a flower is developing still to become beautiful. And that's what the gardener wants. Not for himself, he is dead but let the fragrance of those flowers which the gardener has planted, let their fragrance be shared by all the others, because everyone is connected spiritually and they're even connected materially. There could never be a vacuum at all. With you sitting here and I sitting here, there are millions and millions of atoms which you can't see with the naked eye, it is connecting us. We're one solid mass. There was this old man planting a tree, a mango tree and for a mango tree to bear fruit it takes about seven years. So here this man was about eighty five, nearly ninety. So some young men were passing there. He says, 'Old man, why are you planting, taking so much trouble to plant a mango tree. Its takes about seven years to bear fruit'. So the old man says, 'I'm not planting these mango trees for myself. I'm planting it for others so they may enjoy the fruits. I would be dead I know.' And that is the attitude. That is the love that goes beyond liking and disliking. You see? Now, when you use the word dislike, you're only negating the word like by adding a 'dis', prefixing it with a 'dis'. It’s actually liking. Remove the 'dis' because that 'dis' will lead to disease. All disease is dis-ease. So to, not to feel disease,

6. UK 84- 18 like everything and let that like, because like is something on the surface. If you like a pretty picture, you like a pretty hall, you like a pretty flower, that's liking but that is a step to lead you to loving, to loving. And when a person really and truly loves, totally unselfishly without any reward, without any expectation of any reward, then know that you are practising God. You are living God. Because God is so abstract and he can only be concrete by how much love you have in you. Like Dante has said 'The greater the man, the greater his love.' You see, so simple. So we do not want abstract Gods, we want living Gods. And all great Masters serve one purpose only, not only are they God-realised people, high spiritual beings, but they are there in concrete form so that our minds can become concentrated. That is the purpose why we worship Krishna, Buddha, Christ. That is the purpose. So the human mind needs something concrete to be able to focus all the energies on it. And that is why we say Krishna and God are one. Jesus and God are one. You see? Because we see that. People that use a picture, or a statue, idol, can call it, they are not worshipping the idol, they are just using the idol as a focal point. They're not worshipping the idol, but they worshipping through the idol to that which is abstract. Do you see? It is used as a tool. It is used as an instrument only. And that is how gurus are used as an instrument, as a focal point to that Divinity. Do you see? That's how it works. Another question? We've still got some time. Carry on. Questioner. ..................psychic links .................. (Inaudible) Gururaj. All psychic links you have with a person are of a lower level because there is also a mental condition. You can train your mind you know to have any kind of link you like, but how valid is it. It is still mental projections, while love itself is an emanation and not a projection. So I do not encourage any kind of psychic practices. Questioner. If someone is trying to tune in to us ......................calling on us ...... (Inaudible) Gururaj. How can you be aware that someone is calling in on you? Could it not be your own mental, your own imaginations? Questioner. (Cont'd). ................ (Inaudible) Gururaj. Well if they do call on you send them prayers. That's the best you could do. Healthy prayers. 'May all go well with you'. That kind of thing. Oh, yes.

7. UK 84- 18 Questioner. Gururaj, I think you've answered my question but I'm going to ask it nonetheless. Experience of love at both the human and the superhuman level is deeply personal. Gururaj. Is deeply personal. Questioner. (Cont'd). Deeply personal. Therefore is pure consciousness personal? Gururaj. Good question. Human love has attachments. Human love is something where you love someone for some particular reason which could either be subjective or objective. Super-human love is impersonal. You love for the sake of love itself. Now when it comes to pure consciousness in super human love, the pure consciousness manifests itself because it has no attachments at all. In other words the waves of super human love floats upon the waves of pure consciousness where you recognise not only with the conscious mind, but you feel it so much inside you, that oneness with the object of one's love or devotion. And that is pure consciousness. Fine. Any more. Anything. Anything. Okay, you're next. Aide. Guruji, we have touched on this a little bit but may I ask the full question. Why have Avatars often severe physical illnesses and why do they not try to heal themselves? Well you explained that - because it would be selfish. It is said that mind, body and spirit in men form a oneness. So if a person is highly evolved, does it not follow that they are healthy in the physical sense also. Gururaj. Very good. They might not be. Their bodies might be worn because they give their all to others. They do not take care of their bodies at all. But there is one thing about them all their organs might be rotten, decayed but they do not feel any pain. They do not feel any pain. Because their minds are not on their bodies at all. Take me for example, I had an open heart operation, right, and it is well known by all doctors that once you have an open heart operation, you only have five years to live and my open heart operation was done nearly ten years ago. I'm a diabetic, a severe one, I've got to take insulin injections every day. I've got cancer. Fine. And the doctors are amazed how come I can live. So I tell the doctors and they are very good friends of mine, Professors, not only ordinary GP's. As a matter of fact they consult me on the ailments of many of their parents. Yes. They do. They do. For example at Groot Schoor Hospital I get called in about twice a week at least, for some of the cardiac patients. Because they found that if a person is not in a balanced emotional state or very worked up, there's a lesser chance of them standing or recovering from the operation. So I put them through

8. UK 84- 18 so many understandings and meditations and things and they approach the operation cheerfully and the operations are invariably, with some exceptions I suppose, successful. So, I'm an Advisor at the Hospital on the Neuro Physiological side and on the Cardiac side. Fine. That's besides the point. So they are quite amazed how I live. So I explain to them. Look there is a physical energy, there is a mental energy but what do you know of spiritual energy? And that spiritual energy can perpetuate you for as long as you want to live. Then afterwards you get tired and say 'Oh to hell with the body and go for a holiday for a rest'. And if needs be, an d if I have to come back to do some more work, I'll come back, at will. But this time I'm going to rest for six thousand years and not two thousand years. That answered your question, Peter, Peter Moore? Questioner. Guruji, what is the source of a nation's strength? Gururaj. The source of a Nation's strength is not how many atom bombs they have or how much amount of nuclear energy they have. There's so much nuclear energy in this world today that is stored, so to say, that it can kill thirteen times, no, thirteen thousand times the population of this world if it’s released now. The population of this world is four thousand million and there's so much nuclear energy that it can kill thirteen thousand that amount of people. Do you see? A nation's strength does not lie upon that. A nation's strength lies upon its people and their sobriety in thought, uplifting thought, good thought, willing to help one's neighbour, loving thoughts. That is really a nation’s strength. Such a nation might be overridden with nuclear bombs and what have you, but it will soon rise again because that goodness is really a spiritual strength. The Cold War we are having now between America and Russia and all that, many would say that get rid of all the nuclear energy, while others say that we got to have it as defence, in case Russia invades America. They got to have something to defend themselves. Now they have missiles, that if missiles are sent off from Russia, they have anti-missiles that will make the Russian Missiles explode in the air. How much is that going to help? Although it explodes in the air, those energies will still have to drop down to earth. It’s a radiation. It will still still harm people. So we are sitting on a fire keg, we are sitting on a fire keg. Just about two years ago I was invited to Boston, America. They had a think tank there and they invited people from all over the world and they called it The World Peace Conference, on how to bypass the nuclear threat. But we could come to no solution because there are so many, many vested interests. And of course I ended you know the Conference off with a joke. There in Reagan's office, they have all

9. UK 84- 18 the switches and all the missiles are pointed to Russia five hundred of them pointed to Russia. So by accident, Reagan touched a switch and here in a few minutes the missiles were about to go off to reach Russia in four minutes. So here Reagan got panicky and he phones the Kremlin in Russia and says, 'Please may speak to someone to whom I could say sorry'. (Gururaj laughs) So a nation's strength (pardon) lies in its spiritual power. That's where a nation's strength lies. Oh yes. India is not the spiritual country it was. There's so much bad there than you could find anywhere else in the world. And because of that, you'll always have famines and floods and all kinds of calamities. But in ages past, they had so many invasions, you know from the Grecians, from the Moguls and so many other invasions, and yet it could preserve its own culture. Although it’s very westernised now. There are better discos there in Bombay, than you'd find in London or New York. You see? Its degeneration. Good. Next. Questioner. Gururaj, why has the traditional Christian Church taught against reincarnation? Gururaj. Very good. There's a book out I'd like you to read. It’s just a very thin volume. Its written by E. Hudson and the title is ‘Reincarnation’ and he proves in there that Reincarnation was definitely mentioned in the Bible but when they had the Council of Nicene, in three hundred and forty two AD, many of the, - it was edited - and many of the passages were thrown out. Remember Jesus studied not only in Egypt, right, in Tibet and in India and if you read the 'Gospel according to Levi', he has some facts there where he studied in India and even the names of the gurus were mentioned. Right. So reincarnation was there. But when any religion, I mean not only Christianity, when any religion becomes organised, it becomes a business. And in order to stabilise the business and make the business grow, they had to edit, like many of the Hindu Scriptures are edited. Oh yes. The Bible has been edited to the needs of those Cardinals and who have you that met at this Council. Yes. And this man Hudson made a very deep study of this and he got the passages where you know reincarnation was definitely mentioned. Right. And then religion started becoming a business. First they tried to conquer people with love and when that couldn't work, they instilled fear into people. Eternal damnation. So if there was reincarnation how can they substantiate eternal damnation? So reincarnation had to be thrown out. Mind you I think there is a passage that 'I was he that was Eliza' - something, something like that. There's still some of those passages left. Reincarnation is a definite fact because I through the grace of God can go back into my past lives and I know. I've even gone to the places where I had lived before in a past life and I saw the things that I knew. So many experiments were made and it’s been in the papers for

10. UK 84- 18 example, a young girl she started describing her previous life and she told the people everything. I think a book has been written about her, of her previous life. And she was taken there and she pointed out everything. She said 'In that corner there, there is a jar with some money buried there' and they found it. And things like that. So there has been many, many proofs. Because take it this way, that this life is so short and how might, seventy years might seem so long, but how much can one learn in seventy years, when we have through evolution come through all those millions and millions of happenings and instances. And thank God people can't remember their past lives. To be able to forget is God's greatest gift to us. If we can remember all those things that had happened in previous lives, our lives here would become torturous, become a misery. Because we haven't been all that good you know. Yes. So, it’s a matter of belief really. There are a lot of things in a lot of faiths that are not entirely true. I will tell yo u something to astound you. Just a few brief details because I could go into further details. Jesus never died on the cross. He was crucified. And he was crucified at such a time and the Passover was at sunset, so he was taken down. But because of the severe pain of the nails being knocked into him, he went into a coma. Nicodemus was a very great friend of his, not only his friend but Nicodemus was Jesus’ real father, because Mary used to work in the Temple. And it was Nicodemus that put Joseph up into business. At first Joseph did not want to marry Mary. But then of course you have the mythical side of it that he had a vision in his dream which told him marry. There's no proof to any of these things, though. So he married her. And it was Nicodemus that put them up in that little carpentry business and it was very lucrative. Yes. And when Jesus went into a coma, he was brought down. Some soldiers tried to kill him but he was not killed. It was just surface wound with a sword which healed. Fine. And it was Nicodemus that arranged for him, when he felt a bit better, to escape. And the first person he went to was Mary Magdalene, with whom he was in love and he even had a child with Mary Magdalene. These are truths. Good. On the cross he said 'Son, meet your mother. Mother meet your son.' Of course they interpreted that he spoke to mother Mary. No. He spoke to Mary Magdalene. He did not need to tell that to Mother Mary that 'Mother meet your son and son meet your Mother', - they knew each other. But when little John was born, there are so many Johns in the Bible you get confused. Right. So the son of Jesus, the son of Mary Magdalene, when he was born, because of his teachings and the political situation, he had to be given to others to be brought up and Mary Magdalene did not know where, because naturally she would be running to him. So that was a good thing. Fine. So as soon as he came out of the coma, the first person he went to see was Mary Magdalene, who nursed him and then took him to the other disciples. And when he felt better, he went East and he died at the age of seventy three in the East. Many of the Upanishads, you know the Indian Hindu Scriptures, some of them were written, or dictated rather, spoken by Jesus. The Hindus won't like that, to

11. UK 84- 18 hear that. But they were. Studying all those I could see the trend of thought and when you go into a deep state of meditation as I do, everything is clear as daylight to you. Yes. And who went? Mary Magdalene went and Jesus and the little boy John. John subsequently when he grew up a bit, came back to Jerusalem. That is a bit of the story. I'm going to write a book on this going into the inner details. This is roughly the story. Great, great man that had known God and when he really became one with God, was on the cross, that severe agony where he just let himself totally go. And tha t was the time of his total mergence with Divinity. Before that, he knew it, but the final moment was on the cross. This might sound very astounding to you. Believe you me I am not saying things un-christian because as you can see our emblem, I believe in all of them and I try to combine them, just to bring out that light in the centre, the light within. Questioner. ..................... (Inaudible) Gururaj. He asked the Father, 'Why hast Thou forsaken me?' shows that he had a fear of dying on the cross. And that agony became so intense, that the fear was gone when he merged with Divinity. So those words were spoken before he merged. And that is proof enough that he had not totally merged yet. You see? Very well, it’s lunchtime. Lovely chat this morning. And Buddha too after he got enlightened, he went to live in the pleasure gardens of Narachali. Oh yes, because they are beyond all these things. So there's nothing wrong in him. There is one picture you must really try and see, Siddartha. The book was written by Herman Hesse. Yeah. He was a Nobel Prize winner. He was the only person really that approached the life of Buddha, the nearest. There are a lot of books on the life of Buddha but they are all mixed up with a whole lot of myth and mythology and things like that. So anytime you have a chance to see the film, ‘Siddartha’, please do so. I recommend it. I have seen it three times. Have a pleasant lunch. END


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