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United States 77-28

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1. U S 77 - 28 AMRIT: Okay, Jim, would you like to [INAUDIBLE]? JIM: [INAUDIBLE] [exploring?] the evolution of the soul [from its?] differentiation from the absolute to its progression to the different planes of existence. And I'd also like to [???????] the relationship between the angelic kingdom and the human kingd om. GURURAJ: Very good. Good. The progress of the soul in its development to self attainment. That's what your question really means. Good. AMRIT: And also the relationship between.... GURURAJ: Part two. [MUCH LAUGHTER] Good. The soul in its pr ogression to self attainment or to salvation or nirvana. You could use any term you like. Now, firstly, we have to discriminate or explain the differences between what is meant by soul and what is meant by spirit. Now, there's always been a lot of confu sion here, because many teachers use the word soul, meaning spirit. And they use the word spirit, meaning soul. But now for our purposes let us try and discriminate between the two. And put to it, which is all, of course, mental analysis, put to it dist inctions. What we could interpret as the soul is the individuality. The individual soul is that which is not pure spirit. But the individual soul is a combination of the spiritual self of man and the subtle self of man. Now, we've said this before that m an has three aspects: the physical body, the subtle body, and the spiritual self. Good. Now, the spiritual self forever remains pure. Good. It is untarnished, as the Gita would say, you cannot wet it; you cannot burn it; you cannot pierce it; you cannot destroy it. It remains eternal. Good. Now, when we talk of an individual soul we mean a combination of the spiritual self of man, which is omnipresent, universal, eternal, immortal, and that being veiled or covered with the subtle body of man, that is termed as the individual soul. So to recap, the individual soul means a combination, minus the physical body, the combination of the subtle body and the spiritual self. Now, when man dies and reincarnates, what would reincarnate is the subtle body of man still empowered with the spiritual self. Because the spiritual self cannot be separated from anything whatsoever, be it animate or inanimate. Fine. So in the process of reincarnation, in the process of taking birth again, it is the subtle body that duri ng this period, when it leaves the physical body, during this period it starts evaluating itself. It starts reviewing its entire journey right from the pri mal

2. U S 77 - 28 atom or subatomic matter to the present stage where he is. So this review takes place, this eva luation takes place, and he discovers there, he discovers there, that he has to take another body to fulfill the mission of reaching self attainment. Now, the physical body lasts for seventy years, eighty years, ninety years, a hundred years, perhaps, goo d, because it is gross. The grosser the matter the quicker the destruction would be. Or dissolution, that is a better word. The subtler the matter of which the subtle body is composed takes longer to dissolve. So man's subtle body or the individual sou l is within from the very beginning 'til the very end 'til the very end when he does not need the subtle body any more. And as the subtle body has discarded the spiritual body, so in like manner the spiritual body discards the subtle body. So...Hm? AMRI T: You meant as the subtle body discards the physical body. GURURAJ: As the subtle body discards the physical body, so in the same manner the spiritual body discards the subtle body. A slip of the tongue in no fault of the mind. [LAUGHTER] Good. Now , in spiritual practices this is what we aim at, is to discard the subtle body. But now to give impetus, or to give expression, to the subtle body of man he needs the physical body. And when the need for the one lifetime becomes needless, or the physical body has done its work to a certain extent, when it becomes exhausted, when it requires renewing itself, the very subtle body or the individual soul has to reincarnate again. Fine. And, as I said, in the period of evaluation it determines in what circumst ances or conditions it has to be born. It might need to learn lessons being born in a rich family or in a poor family; in a healthy body, or, perhaps, in an unhealthy body. And all these conditions we have discussed before are conditions that we have cre ated ourselves. Now, the composition of the subtle body is also of matter, very fine matter, much, much, much, more finer than the physical matter. Good. But being so fine it is also more powerful and more enduring. It contains within itself all the memories of all the lifetimes. And that is why after leaving the physical body it can, being on its own, being on its own, it can view all the experiences, all the experiences, objectively. And when it views the experiences objectively, then only can a true evaluation take place. The birth of any person in any circumstance is no accident. There are no accidents at all. Now, in this evaluation after discarding the physical body, it also operates upon, or within the framework, within the pattern, of certain laws, certain k armic laws, or a pattern, or as a part of a pattern which makes up the entire universe. So in its process to self attainment...self attainment here would mean that the subtle body will have to annihilate or subdue itself. And in this subduing as the physi cal body disintegrates and goes back into its original elements, from dust to dust we would say, the Hindus would say, "from ether to ether." That's why they cremate. Good. Now, as physical body disintegrates and goes back into its original elements, so at attainment the subtle body also dissolves and go back

3. U S 77 - 28 into its original elements which we would term as self attainment. Because what remains then is just the spiritual self. Good. Now, this spiritual self in man is captured, to use an analogy, in th e form of a balloon where the air inside the balloon is the same as the air outside the balloon. Now, when the balloon is pricked or bursts, then the air in the balloon becomes one with the air that is outside the balloon. Therefore, no discrimination is made between the spiritual self that is captured within the framework of man and the spiritual self which is the universal self. In other words it means that the Atman and Brahman, individual self and the universal self, is but one. And the barrier that makes man differentiate between the oneness of the individual soul, or the individual spirit, and the universal spirit is the subtle body which we call the indiv idual soul. The Sanskrit term for it is jivatma. Jiva, life force or life that is encased, o r which encases the atma. Good. And that atma is one with the paramatman. In other words the individual soul is one with the supreme soul or spirit. Good. So in the process, in the process of evolution through various kinds of incarnations, what we a re doing is bringing that subtle body still more to its subtler levels until it becomes so subtle that the balloon, the rubber of the balloon, just mel ts away, dissolves itself. Now, we have said before that nothing is destructible. Nothing in the universa l is ever destroyed. Even when we leave this body, this body is never destroyed. It disintegrates into its original elements, and from that other substances are formed. The same thing happens to the subtle body. When that too is dissolved it also merges away into the elements that compose it, which are very similar to the physical elements but existing in a much finer form. Good. So in the process of the soul to self annihilation, or to self attainment, rather, what one does is bring the subtle body t o its subtlest level, and from there when the subtlest level is not needed any more it too is discarded. Fine. So when the individual entity wants to become the universal self or achieve self attainment, this is the process he has to go through. The first thing is, of course, the individual soul requires a long time, in our sense of the term, a long time to gain the experiences. It works in a curve, in a circle, with the downward stroke and then the upward stroke. Now, as this primal atom progresses thro ugh and hurtles through space, it gathers onto itself all kinds of other elements which entraps it. Entraps it. It is like a silkworm, like a silkworm spinning and spinning and spinning and getting caught up, getting enmeshed in the silk it has spun by it self. In like manner, in like manner the individual entity gets caught within himself until he reaches a peak. And when he reaches the peak, then the desire for emancipation dawns on him. A yearning starts where now he feels that he is completely trappe d. Trapped by his own karma, of course. Trapped by the workings of his own soul, as you would say. And the upward process would be, would be to try and make the subtle body finer and finer and finer.

4. U S 77 - 28 So when the individual soul, or that little primal atom starts off, it goes through all these millions of lifetimes. Now, I don't know where the Hindus got the figure from, but they say that to reach the human stage one has to live eight million four hundred lifetimes. Where they get the figure, I don't know. But.... [LAUGHTER] But to me it means, to me it means that to develop from the subatomic particle, to mineral, to plant, to animal, to man, it does require a long procession of processes, which from the absolute viewpoint is but just a flash. From the relative, from the linear angle at which we measure time and space it is necessary to know it takes quite a bit of time and many processes which are termed as lives or lifetimes. And perhaps that is how they came to this figure. That figure is not i mportant. But one thing is important, that we have to go through these various processes. So from the very moment of individualization.... Now even, even in matter, even in matter, even in a solid piece of stone, a rock, it too contains a subtle self. G eologists have found various layers of, and through the various layers it has found how long that stone or that rock has existed. But it has not yet been able to measure the subtle qualities of the rock, which could linger on, which could linger on even a fter the rock is broken up into pieces. Even after it's powdered up there is some essence there which composes the subtle self of the rock. The grosser form of the rock, the mineral, also disintegrates and go back to its various elements. But the subtle ness of that rock carries forward. We think a rock is inanimate. We think it is inanimate, but there is life even in a piece of rock. Good. And if there was no life, then chang es would never occur in the rock. You put a stone outside for six months an d the conditions of the weather will have some influence on the rock to change it. But if it had a quality of unchangeability, then all the outside influences would never be able to change it. So it means that even in the so called inanimate piece of roc k there is this receptive quality that could produce within itself all the changes. And those changes, that receptive quality or the receptive entity, is the subtle body . Good. So not only a human being evolves, but even the mineral, the rock, it too evo lves. And it has to reach, it has to reach a higher stage of existence which normally is described...higher than mineral would be plant. And we know it has been measured that there is life in plant and that plants even have feelings. All these experiment s have been conducted, and many of them have been conducted here in America. Now, this is all still part and parcel of the progress of the individual soul to self realization, self attainment. Good. Then from there the animal kingdom and the various sp ecies of animal life it has to go through until he reaches man. Now, the difference between man and an animal is just the ability to think, the power of discrimination. Good. The animal functions more as if it is drawn on its path through a current whic h is pushing it on the path. It is within the force of this propulsion. But when that same animal evolves enough to reach the stage of man....And man with his intellectual power can stop his progress, can stagnate, or make his progress faster. That is t he advantage of reaching the stage of man.

5. U S 77 - 28 The mineral, plant, and animal has to prod on and on without using any form of consciousness for its evolution. It is just drawn in this tide, this force of evolution that takes it on and on. So therefore we reg ard man to be of the highest level, as far as we know, on this planet. On this planet. And that is why it is said in the scriptures that man is made in the image of God. The image would mean that man is capable of reaching self attainment, which in turn means becoming one with Divinity. Fine. So here we, reaching the stage of man. We have the necessary ability to discriminate between things, between right and wrong. And the real discrimination lies in which path one must take for oneself to achieve the maximum. Or if one does not achieve the maximum in this lifetime, then there are many, many lifetimes ahead whereby he could do that, and be pushed along as the animal is pushed along in a natural current. But the reason why man yearns and seeks is to a void all the unhappinesses, all the miseries of birth and death. They are described as not very joyous experiences. Now, death itself could be a very joyous experience. And what makes it unjoyous is the attachment man has for what he's going to leave beh ind. And that makes the whole experience an experience which could be very unpleasurable. Man clings to life even if he is eighty, ninety, years of age. He still feels I want to live and live and live. And he'll try a nd protect all his so called posse ssions with all his power and all his might, and yet the very next day he would have to discard his body. So what comes in the path of evolution is this attachment. Right. Now, the subtle body is composed of the mind with all its attachments, and that in its totalness becomes the ego. So the subtle body, or soul, could also be called the ego self of man. And within the framework of the ego self of man all the memories of past lives are contained. All its needs, its wants, are contained. All its attac hments are contained. So when we say that for man to evolve he has to annihilate his ego, what is meant by that, the proper word would be to subdue the ego, not annihilate, because you could annihilate nothing. Once any thought or word is set into motion it is set into motion forever, and it could reach the furtherest extent of the universe as a whole. So in the process of subduing the ego self we are trying to find self attainment. And in this process the object is for the soul, the individual self, th e ego self, that is so enmeshed by its own doings, that's imprisoned by its own doings, that ego self wants to find freedom. And the only freedom it can find is when it reaches beyond itself, and in reaching beyond itself it dissolves or is subdued, and t hat too returns back to its original elements. So the soul has to and needs this process to reach self attainment. Now, originally when individuality started, there was this deep extreme silence. In Sanskrit we call it a Night of Brahman, or another word that is used is "pralay," where everything is stilled. Right. But within this stillness this stillness operates in varying cycles. One cycle starts and ends, and then another cycle starts and ends, and another cycle starts and ends, and this goes on ad infinitum. Right. So in one particular cycle when everything is stilled, it is called pralay, or the Night of Brahman. But within this stillness there is still a samskara. So it is not only the individual soul that has a samskara, but

6. U S 77 - 28 it is also the e ntire universe, or the particular universe that we are in also has samskara. And these samskaras remain in a very subtle form. And they would remain in a subtle form as currents would remain in very still waters. We might observe a pond or the lake outs ide and it seems very still, but in the stillness, in the still waters there still are currents. And it is the regeneration, or the currents becoming more powerful, or one current clashing with another current, that creates this upheaval again, that creat es the turbulence in the water again, and that is how another cycle begins. And when that cycle begins that very turbulence that is created is what is called the Big Bang according to modern scientists. And from there the propulsion takes place. So fro m that silence we begin, and in self attainment we reach the silence again. As far as the spiritual self is concerned there is no journeying, because it forever, being the underlying factor, the unchanging factor, it forever remains still. It has nowhere to go. It is here and its progress, or its journey, is from here to here. It goes nowhere. The soul has the journey, the soul, which is the ego self, or the subtle body of man, that does the traveling. It does the traveling on this vast ocea n of the s piritual self. And the spiritual self of each and every one is the same. The same spiritual self. Therefore, we say, theology says, God is one. That is what is meant by it that it is just one ocean, and all individualities are but bubbles or waves upon the same one ocean. So the soul too, or the subtle body, has not very far to go, even in this propulsion, because it starts in silence and ends i n silence. And the silence is everywhere. The real journey is the experience it gains. This cannot be measu red in terms of time or space, because in the realms of the subtle there is no time and neither space. And many people that have dabbled in the...in certain forms of occultism where they have self projection, what they are really doing is projecting thei r subtle bodies outside themselves. And faster than thought or as fast as thought, they could be in any place they would desire. Here we are in America and within as fast as sound, or as fast as thought, we are in Japan. So in that realm of subtlety ther e is no time and no space. Fine. But the subtle body is still subject to causation. (Amrit, could you? Some water.) Right. But the subtle body, the physical body is subject...the physical body is subject to time, space and causation. Good. With the p hysical body we measure time and we measure space, and we know that all this has been caused, and every cause has its effect. The subtle body is beyond the time concept and the space concept of the physical body, but it still has the powers of causation b ecause it carries within itself all the impressions that caused it. It operates within the framework of causation, and if it did not it will not be able to evaluate itself to take on another birth. Now, this is a ve ry fine point to remember, and it's wor th repeating: that the physical body is subject to time, space, and causation. The subtle body is subject to causation only, because it is beyond time and space; and the spiritual body is beyond all three.

7. U S 77 - 28 In the spiritual body there is no time, space, an d neither causation. It is omnipresent; therefore there is no space. Being omnipresent it is never measured in terms of space. Being eternal it is never measured in terms of time (thank you). And that, being beyond time, being eternal, you cannot measu re it with linear time. Being omnipresent and universal you cannot measure it with linear space, and it has no causation. It just is. And that is the isness that people talk about. A nd as scriptures would put it, "I am what I am." I am the am. Hm? AMRIT: "I am that I am." GURURAJ: "I am that I am." That's one of them, as well. So that is the spiritual body. So it is the spiritual self that generated to express itself through these various mediums. Now, the spiritual self cannot, cannot enter the realms of gross physical matter directly. It too has to go through a process of grossifying itself through degrees and stages. And that is why the subtle body is necessary, which in turn brings about the grosser body. So the whole process of self att ainment would be the total dissolution of the physical body, then total dissolution of the subtle body, until when those two are dissolved then everything is attained, because the spiritual body is always there. And when one is conscious, really conscious , even with the mind, or experience the amness, "I am that I am," then here, even though he's entrapped in the physical and subtle bodies, still can experience that spiritual body of his, that amness. Okay. And that is the soul's progress, the individual soul's progress, to become the universal soul, the amness. Okay. And that is self attainment. Fine. Good. Part two was..? VOICE: Excuse me. Could I pursue this point for one second? GURURAJ: Yeah. VOICE: Alright. It's not quite clear to me that at the final dissolution, that at the time of dissolution of the physical b ody, the subtle body goes on. Is it at that time also that the vast dissolution of the subtle body occurs and is merging with ethe r? GURURAJ: Yeah. Yes, that is very true. That is very true. That is very true. For the realized person the subtle body and the physical body dissolves at the same time. For the realized person it is like a top that has been, that is spinning and it is now just waiting off for the momentum to spin off to become silent again. Right.

8. U S 77 - 28 MARGARITTE: Guruji, you mentioned that our purpose is rather like a curve where we reach a peak, where we start to then realize that we want to come back to where we' d come from. Would you say then that whilst man on the first part of the curve that he doesn't necessarily look to come back to where he is, and that those people could not be reached by meditation and spiritual practices? Or is that always there wherever he is on the curve? GURURAJ: Right. Now, starting off from, starting off from the top of the curve, what happens one has to go through all these other kingdoms where the propulsion is just natural, totally natural and functioning with the laws of nat ure: the mineral, plant, animal. And then when he has passed that, he reaches the stage of man, and it normally starts at the primitive stage. Right. Now, at the primitive stage the whole thought, because of the animal background that he has come from, t he whole thought is self survival. His whole mind, the whole mind of primitive man, is just for self survival. And now through the process of evolution of the primitive man, and with him developing the various faculties of the intellect, he starts thinki ng and evaluating that, "All this is not the answer. There is something greater and higher." That is when the intellect starts analyzing things. Fine. Good. Or the heart starts feelings things, that this is just not all. There is s o much more. From that point the upward curve starts. From that point the upward curve starts. And as long as man does not yearn for salvation he cannot be sincere. He cannot be sincere in any spiritual practice. Good. What counts most in any practice of this nature to r each self realization is the burning desire to reach self realization. And when this yearning comes about within man he tries to find it. Find it through the various teachings of the world, and the various teachings of the world must lead him to experien ce it. Now, at first you start off with a burning desire to achieve. Right. But when you have experienced it, then the desire to achieve becomes desireless. So you start with desire until you reach the stage of desirelessness, so even desire does not rem ain. Because desire too is a manifestation of the mind, and created by the mind. Good. So the idea here is this, that on the upward curve, reaching back home, man too acts so spontaneously that his very action becomes the desire. His very thought become s the desire. And the difference between desire and desirelessness is just this: lack of spontaneity. The one having desire is a conscious effort. Conscious effort which is continually cognized and reenergized by the mind. But when one reaches a state of desirelessness, then his actions are spontaneous. Spontaneous within the framework of the desire of attainment. Yet the element, the burning power, of the desire has burnt itself out. Good. So when man has desire he is still enmeshed in his ego self. He is still enmeshed in his, he is still enmeshed with the primitive instinct of self preservation. We, we have, we have reached a stage where we think that we are so far beyond

9. U S 77 - 28 the primitive man, but, really speaking, we are not. Perhaps we have exerci sed the brain box a bit more, and are capable of analyzing and thinking a bit deeper or at deeper levels, but that is not real evolution as far as the spiritual self is concerned because we are doing exactly the same thing which the primitive man had been doing is self preservation. The ego itself wants to preserve itself, and therefore...and that is why all these attachments come about, because the ego is always in fear of losing. Now, really speaking there is nothing in this universe that belongs to us. Nothing in this universe. We say, my wife, my son, my house, my car, my airplane. Nothing belongs to us, because the ego itself, the ego itself, is illusory. The ego itself assumes substance based upon that which is substanceless. Based upon that which is substanceless. It has no substance. Upon that light that flickers is like a person living in reflected glory of his master. In that sense, the ego li ves. And enjoying the glory it tries very hard to preserve itself, and it does not want to let go. I have been called on several occasions where a man or a woman is past eighty, and there were a few past seventy, and the doctors and everyone gave up hope that "Well, this is the end." Yet the person's attachment was so great and so deep to the ego and the life, and the life that was created by the ego, that it just did not want itself to leave the body. [END SIDE ONE] GURURAJ: ...to leave the body. And I was called to these people. And the people surrounding this person said that we do really wish th at he or she would now leave the body instead of going through all this misery because the end has come. And what I normally do is sit with the person, meditate a bit, and go into prayers and allow the subtle body to leave the grosser body as smooth as po ssible. So you see that what the point I'm trying to make is that the ego seeks self preservation, right, and that is non different from the preservation that the primitive man sought. There's a difference, of course, in understanding, where the primitiv e man did not understand the subtle body. He only understood his physical body, and he tried to preserve the physical body. But modern man wants to preserve the physical body, and more so the ego body. And that is the greatest stumbling block in reachin g the goal. In reaching back home he is building walls around himself. So to self attainment one has to subdue the ego self, which is the subtle self within man, and thereby reach home or self attainment or self realization or total self integration. And spiritual practices is the way to do that. Hm? Okay.

10. U S 77 - 28 VOICE: Guruji, in some traditions they speak of the inward path, where you're getting enmeshed [in the matter in life. That's involution?]. And then the upward one is evolution. GURURAJ: Yeah . Involution and evolution. Good. Now, what it really means is that the entire tree exists in the seed. In other words, the seed has the total potentiality of the entire tree. Now, if the seed had not the entire potentiality of the entire tree, then th e totality of the tree would not develop. So what is happening there is that the fully grown tree is existing in seed form. In other words, the tree exists in an involved form. And when it finds its expression it starts exis ting in an evolved form. Goo d. So the expression of the seed could be its process of evolution in an outward form the one is existing. For example, in a sperm the totality of man is contained. It has to go through the process of mixing up with the ovum, and the process of developme nt within the mother's womb, and then, of course, from infancy...being born, infancy, youth stage, middle age, old age, it has to progress. Likewise in everything we observe around us there are these two states. The state of involution, where it exists w ithin itself unexpressed and that...and in its expression it becomes, it goes into the state of evolution. So involution and evolution exist side by side all the time. Okay. VOICE: Now, people would like to have a chance to be outside with you for awhile today. GURURAJ: Oh, yes. By all means. VOICE: [INAUDIBLE] ...so we could break a little early. GURURAJ: Okay. It's up to you. Yes. VOICE: Part two? VOICE: Oh, pa rt two. Now, we have to remember to start out, right away, with part two tonight. [INAUDIBLE] GURURAJ: He wants to know about angels. [LAUGHTER] Don't you see them around you? [CHIT CHAT]

11. U S 77 - 28 GURURAJ: Did they see this picture? [VARIOUS RESPONSES] **** END ****

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