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1. U S 80 - 29 THE RISE AND FALL OF CIVILIZATIONS GURURAJ: Good. What shall we talk about this morning? What is the meaning of a rustle of a piece of paper? Good question. SUJAY: Historically and mythologically, we've seen the rise and fall of different civilizations and cultures. They seem to rise up from nothing, reach a certain point of growth, and then fall back into total almost complete oblivion. What is the cause o f those types of cycles, and it appears that civilizations can only reach a certain point of evolution on this planet and then they tumble back into nothing; and can civilization on this planet only rise to a certain plateau and no higher before it tumbles down? GURURAJ: Beautiful. Now if you study history you will find that at certain periods of time, and this was extensively discussed by [Ramteuseh?] where he starts off from India. Up to the sixteenth century India was on top, and then the civilizatio n and culture waned and then it moved on further to the west as the sun would go and then Greece came up; Egypt had a resurgence of its culture; then it moved to England and America and now today the greatest focal point on Earth is Japan. (Why does this sound a bit hoarse? Is it okay? Good. Fine.) Now what could the reason be for this, where cultures rise and wane? Now, there are many factors that bring a certain country to a certain level of development. It is a process of ages and yet the certain fo cal point of development does not come from within itself. There are many contributing factors of surrounding countries. For example, during the time 2000 years ago when the Middle East was at its height, it never reached that height on its own. But bei ng at the crossroads of commerce, of world trade, so many cultures were brought together. Basically there are only three cultures in the world that have contributed to the so called progress of the world: India, China and Greece. Those are the only three cultures and what has been taken from there what the West has received was received its philosophies and various theologies, metaphysics, etc., came from Greece to the West. And it is said that all this stemmed from India where certain of the cultures went to the West to Greece and others to the East, meaning China and Japan. Now, this is what of course the Indians would like to claim. But now the question is, can cultures arise simultaneously at various places, or does it have to follow a linear pat tern? Now cultures could rise simultaneously. If we study the Inca civilization, it was a very highly advanced civilization and yet this was existing at that time. Now the world as we know it today was not the structure of the world some thousands of ye ars ago. For example, India was right alongside South Africa, and when this great explosion occurred when Atlantis blew up that very force pushed that portion of land, broke

2. U S 80 - 29 off that portion of land and forced it northward. And the impact was so great t hat it pushed up the Himalayas, and it is believed by many today that part of Atlantis is under the Himalayas. But now when it comes to the rise and fall of a particular civilization, what could be the cause of it? When a civilization rises, it rises beca use, as I said, contributory factors of other civilizations that preceded it and that are alongside it. And the people in that particular sphere would gather. Now civilizations are not made up by a whole lot of people together. There are just very few p eople whose driving force is so much, that put forward such advanced ideas, that automatically they find a following which in turn uplifts people in a certain way what we call civilization. Really speaking, there is no such thing as civilization. It's a ll barbarism in a more refined form. Good. A civilized person is a person that would have within him all the great virtues of kindness and compassion and sympathy and love that is a civilized person. But, how many are there? Therefore I say they are rat her barbaric and what we regard to be civilization is just the surface value or technological development that we see, and we call them civilized. You find people that would eat with their hands while other people would eat with knives and forks. Now can we really say that people that sit on the ground and eat with their hands are less civilized than those that sit at a table with knife and fork? They are not. You see? So, the upsurgence of civilization is a fallacy. This world has been as it has been for thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years and we measure civilization only by a different way of living; and yet basically it is the same form of life that has been lived all along. Customs change and we call it civilization. We call that civ ilization. And then again, civilization is measured by technological processes, by technology. A person flies in an airplane so he is civilized, more civilized than a person that travels with a donkey cart. And yet that person traveling with a donkey ca rt could be a more civilized person. He is more human. Civilization should be measured by how human you are. We don't want to make people into gods it's not necessary. But we need to make people into human beings that know the value of humanity, and t hat is the test of a civilized person. So, when technological progress is made in certain countries at a certain period of time due to factors as I said which has contributed from outside sources, from outside countries that would lead these people to a different standard of living not a higher standard of living, but a different standard of living which could make things more easier for the five senses or where less labor is involved in achieving or doing something then we say it is a civilized countr y. In my opinion, all the various highly technological countries, like America, England, Germany, France are they really civilized? No. I find them more barbaric than very very backward countries. Traveling around the villages of India, for example, o r perhaps in some of the backwoods here in America itself, where people are filled with love, you're made to feel you're loved. But in so called modern civilized countries, what do you find is: what can I get out of it? Is that a human being? It is an a nimal because that is what an animal wants. I'm feeling hungry so I've got to go and kill and get the food. That's the basis of it

3. U S 80 - 29 all. Now today civilized countries what do they base their civilizations upon? Not upon eternal truths like love and char ity and compassion and sympathy and things like that. No. All these countries are based upon economics: everything done in the so called societies and countries and communities is entirely based upon economics, and economics has become the norm. The str onger, the more powerful a country is economically, the more civilized it is regarded to be. And yet this very observation of civilization is the real downfall of the country because the emphasis is wrongly placed. It's totally wrongly placed. So, you i nvent the nuclear bomb so are you more civilized? Rather in olden times where if there should be a war, it will be a man to man battle. And of course wars, we do not advocate them, but here was a fairness: it is man to man, while today there could be th ousands of people down here and an airplane flies overhead and drops a bomb and kills thousands of people. And that we call civilization. It's a total misnomer. That is not civilization. But the questio n is basically this, that why do certain countries rise at a certain time while others do not? Now, there are certain karmic values involved there. Now by this I mean collective karma. There is individual karma and there is collective karma where individual karma where people are striving for bettermen t as America is doing now where people are striving for betterment, having higher and higher ideals. So all these thought forces are accumulated in the atmosphere surrounding that particular country. So then when all these thought forces accumulate, we call it collective karma. So every nation has collective karma. Now, when this collective karma reaches a higher peak or a more subtler advanced peak, you would find that nation progressing, depending in which direction the collective karma is directed. It could be directed toward philosophy and religion; and this has happened in China and in India and in Tibet where it was directed towards higher ideals, towards approaching and trying to reach the truth, so to say. Then that becomes a higher ideal of k arma and the country benefits, for it requires thousands and thousands of people with higher ideals to bring into that country one person that could be the embodiment of all those ideals. That is why a Gandhi would be born. Good. Some people are militan t and empire grasping, so they create a collective karma which would lead to empire building. That is why a Churchill is born which is the embodiment or a Queen Victoria which is the embodiment that symbolizes the totality of that collective karma to buil d an empire. And then you would have people more bent towards greater and greater material values and how more easier it could be attained, and material values can be attained more easily by technology. So, here in America you would find people wanting t o gain. The greatest rat race in the world is in America. We have to face facts. So, they want to achieve things as soon as possible and all these instant coffees and instant puddings were invented in America. They brought out all these various technol ogical things that could help one to accumulate. Here, as in many other Western countries, you would find people trying to gain the most with the least amount of effort. Philosophically this is true, but when it comes to the bones and beans, then it's a different story altogether. How can

4. U S 80 - 29 I, without doing nothing, accumulate this or that? The whole idea of man today, even generally speaking, is how to have a very beautiful home; how to have a few cars standing in the driveway; and how to have a nice bi g bank balance. Now, in order to get this quickly the mind became more inventive. Now you create the necessity for yourself. You create certain ideals for yourself which, although they are not intrinsically, genuinely necessary, but you have formed with your mind an idea that this is necessary for me, and as we know, the mother of all invention is necessity. So like that, individual minds are bent upon that so called necessities of life. And then, of course, the story of the Jones ' come in. I know in Cape Town in the very small Indian community there, one opens up a dry - cleaning works and within a year seven, eight other people have opened up dry - cleaning factories. One opens up a cinema, and you'll find within a year or two a dozen people are cinema owners. I talk of experience. So, people try to emulate: if he can do it, why can't I? If he can achieve that, why can't I? If he can build himself a mansion, why can't I? Now these thoughts are going round and round and round, and so here a collecti ve karma is built up. The whole atmosphere is geared for a certain kind of progress which man thinks is real progress. A very highly spiritual person can walk down the road totally broke, but he will not be looked upon, he won't even be noticed. But the world's worst thief who is very wealthy, if he walks down the road, it's a "Yes, sir. Morning, Sir. Good afternoon, Sir." So you see how the minds get geared, and over a long period of time all this combines and when it combines it adds greater momentu m to the individual. And when greater momentum is added to the individual, greater momentum comes collectively and that is how whichever way the mind is geared, that way greater progress will be made. That is why America today the collection of thought forces are so geared that greater and greater inventions will come about, although America are the leaders in the field as far as technology goes, but it will stil l become more and more so and you will still find greater and greater technological invention s would come about. Now that is because of collective thought forces which is none else than collective karma. So, whichever way the mind is geared, in that way progress will be made. If the mind is geared towards spirituality, greater progress will be m ade in spirituality. If the mind is geared towards technology, greater progress will be made there. And, because of all these collective thought forces gathered together, it gives the individual greater momentum because you can draw upon all these though ts that covers the entire atmosphere, for nothing is destructible. Every thought that is thought is there, eternally there. It cannot be destroyed because thought itself is a thing. Thought is a substance and no substance, no matter, can ever be destroy ed. So America, for example, has reached a height technologically. And what has it produced? It has produced so much unhappiness in the world. And, people are looking around, turning back but we have gone so far in the outer things of life and we have just knocked our heads against the wall. So, they are turning to look inside.

5. U S 80 - 29 I've been told that in San Francisco alone there are about five hundred so called spiritual movements. What gives rise to this? This comes about because people feel an inner dissatisfaction. So a country rises to a certain level, a certain height, and then it has to change its direction. Now, when it changes its direction to other things in life, we think it has fallen down. It has really not fallen at all, only the energie s have been directed in a different manner, or the energies are going in a different direction. Now, let us take Rome, the civilization of Rome. They were a conquering nation. Like England, they were empire builders, but finding things so easy at those times, they became totally negligent of the true values of what life consists of. We are very fortunate today that we are trying to seek for true values. They sought for pleasure. The more we can gain, the greater pleasure we can have: hedonism. The hi ghest goal was pleasure. Now, because of taking that pleasure principle to the extreme, it has to find its opposite. For pleasure will always find its opposite in pain, and that is how w ith the excessive seeking of pleasure which landed up in all kinds of debauchery so that the empire started declining. Once these values declined when anything is taken to an extreme, you will find that it has to fall. You can only reach a certain height: like elastic, you can only stretch it to a certain point, and if y ou stretch it beyond that point, it will break. So, when a civilization falls, it means one thing: that the elastic has been stretched so much that it has broken. There's one advantage here in America that you have. America has the potential at the moment of becoming one of the most spiritual countrie s in the world. It has the potential. Everyone is seeking. They have reached the height, the limitation, of unhappiness. They've reached the totality of unhappiness because their minds were geared to outward search, to total materiality, to the total i dea of making good. Your very principle that everyone can become a president shows that. But they do not say that everyone can become a saint! They whole thing was wrongly founded. But there are historical factors that were responsible for this, and pe ople just followed in the line. People just followed like sheep because a few people wanted the country to progress. In a period of two, three hundred years no other country has progressed materially as much as America has. But, the tide is now turning. The tide is definitely turning, and having reached the acme of unhappiness, dissatisfaction, discontentment, in spite of the labor saving devices and all other kinds of material progress, people are unhappy. So, there's only one way they can go: they c an only go inward. And I tell you this for sure, traveling around all over the show, the Americans are more keener to really know the truth, to really find themselves, to get away from this discontent that they are now searching for true happiness. They are searching for true happiness. Yet their minds are so evolved that very seldom would you find someone without a degree or a qualification. I judge this from the forms I get for initiatio n, and ninety nine, ninety five percent are degreed people and th e others are people in high technology. So, the mind has

6. U S 80 - 29 had a chance, been geared to it by atmospheric circumstances and which in turn influence the inner need the inner want brought America to this stage where everything has become press button. But now they have to start pressing the inner buttons. And this process has started at the turn of the century. It has started there already. The seeds have been sown at the turn of the century and it is now slowly, slowly starting to sprout. So America no w is well geared to become one of the most spiritual countries in the world. America will teach India. America will teach China. America will teach Japan and Tibet what religion is all about. The word religion itself means to "bind back," and you are n ow really starting to bind yourselves back to your true self. So, as these various cultures arise, as an awakening comes in these various civilizations and cultures, this happens. It depends upon how the energies are directed. And, when one individual ha s a certain aim, his brother will follow suit and develop a similar aim, and like that it expands, expands, expands until the minds of that particular culture, that particular community or society is all geared to one aim. For example, if one of us here d esires to become wealthy, it is not only your inner desire that wants you to do that, but it is also outside forces that are influencing you and strengthening that desire within you because when you walk around you see material prosperity around you all th e time. Thought forces are floating around you all the time that you also want to be like that. Now a different force has taken place. There is a certain force and sometimes it acts very abruptly. Some countries, for example, this one, had become very very permissive, totally permissive, things that you would not find in other places. Like pre teen porn and what have you things I've heard and read really sets my hair on edge. So what have you attracted? You've attracted an extreme fundamentalist gov ernment now, haven't you? [LAUGHTER] Oh, yes. All extremes are bad. All extremes are bad, but by reaching one extreme you automatically draw the other extreme where a totally moralist government has come in. Yes. You see? You have attracted that by ha ving gone so far in the other direction. And this is necessary. It's a very good thing that has happened. Now, this will help if the government carries on according to its promises, this will help to bring the middle road where yo u are not really the permissive person any more the country as a whole and not too fundamentalist either. And the admixture of the two can lead this civilization, this culture, to greater and greater spiritual heights. So likewise, in eve ry civilization these things are ne cessary. Dictatorships develop in the world. Why? It is because of these reasons where the whole culture requires a hard slap in the face very very quickly. So all conditions everywhere are brought about by the total cultural karma of that particular co untry. Many times people have asked me, they say, "In India you have all these yogis sitting up there in the Himalayas and meditating and you have such holy men. Why do you have all these problems in India?" I say, "What holy men are you talking about an d how many are there? You only hear these stories. You're very very backward. You're talking of two,

7. U S 80 - 29 three, four, five thousand years ago, not today." Yes, we have a lot of these so called yogis sitting there in the Himalayas . We have a lot of them, w e do, but are they real yogis or are they escapists that could not face the problems of the world so they escape away people that do not want action. Yet they are full of activity. Their minds are chattering away all the time activity. They are in act ivity, but not in action. Action is a spontaneous doing, while activity is something which you're forced into. You see? So, they ask me why are there so many problems in India? You have all these floods and famines and riots people killing each other b y the hundreds so called because of religion Hindu, Moslem, blah, blah why, if it is such a spiritual country and that could generate a karmic atmosphere of peace? So I tell them that India is not what you imagine it to be. You would find a few holy pe ople because some ages ago people have been orientated towards a spiritual way of life, so there is some little essence there, but most of it is covered up by extreme materiality. I have found when I was in India about fifteen or eighteen months ago, that right from the rickshaw boy to a cabinet level, everyone is totally corrupt. The rickshaw boy will try and get a rupee or two extra out of you, and so would a cabinet minister try and get a few million out of you if they can. Corruption, corruption, cor ruption! [END SIDE ONE] GURURAJ: No honesty left. No sincerity left. India, the cradle of civilization as I always say, civilization is gone, only the cradle is left. So that is why all these calamities are drawn upon you. That is why collective ka rma brings about all these calamities. So, you have these holy places of pilgrimage. I've been to Benares which is supposed to be the holy city. I really don't know what's so holy about it. Benares makes the finest saris in the whole of India. These are called [Benarsisari?]. But you go into a sari shop, and so many [touts?] around, "Oh, just let me show you the factory, this, that the other..." And can they catch you, oh boy! Something which you find in an ordinary shop for fifty rupees you'll pay five hundred rupees there. Where is the holiness? You have a little guide taking you around those dirty narrow lanes. They've never heard of hygiene and you are swindled from left, right and center. Where is the holiness? So, I say India deserves all this which is happening to it. Let more floods come. Let there be more famine perhaps that's what you need to learn faster. And that is why India also needed a dictatorship in the form of Indira Gandhi when she was first elected. It was a must, for the re comes a time when even any culture requires really to be controlled by an iron hand. These are all the contributing factors of civilizations rising and falling, cultures rising and falling; because when a certa in

8. U S 80 - 29 height is reached when a certain heigh t is reached in a particular field, then a great amount of ego develops that "We have done this," things become too easy for people. And how are they going to pass their time? They are going to pass their time in decadence. And that is how all the permis siveness in America has come about. And of course, it has overflowed to other countries like England and Germany and all those other places. It has flowed over. Why? Because things are too easy. Things are too easy and people have to remain in activit y. They don't want action but they have to be in activity, so they have to do something. For all these various gadgets and what have you do not please us anymore. Oh, we are tired of the press buttons, but we have become lazy, we don't do anything else to get rid of the press button system. Nobody wants to light a fire today it is so beautiful and pleasant no, we push the button so the stove is on. We push the button, the washing machine is on. You see? So that has made man very robot like. Everyth ing push button, and subsequently he has become lazy. And yet, being filled with inner activity and motion, he has to do something. So then he looks for excitement something to keep the inner activity alive. And that is why all this permissiveness has come about. You see. But it is really good to observe that people are now turning more and more inward to try and find their real true selves. They would not waste energy in doing.... For example, women, they would not waste their energy in scrubbing the floors or lighting the fire or washing clothes, no, that becomes a chore. But the same energy they would expend in going to very expensive gymnasiums and yoga classes and pay a fortune for them and all kinds of other activities which are so expensive. Now, all this is definitely not necessary. If that woman would just bend down more often to pick up things, right, or do her washing by hand instead of having all these great mincers and I don't know what, do it by hand! People that eat meat why can't they buy a chopper and have a block and make their own mince instead of putting it through an electric mincer? I'm not a meat eater, but I observe, I look around, I don't close my eyes. So, you see, here on the one side, labor saving press button; then on the other side to find the same exercise they could gain at home, they go to gymnasiums or jogging or whatever. And yet that is not necessary. They can be at home with the children and look after the home and do all the work which will give them suffici ent exercise and all these other exercises are not necessary. So, people have to be in activity. It is their very nature to be in activity. So they find the release of their energies in other forms of exercise or what have you instead of doing the exerci se at home. And, it is just turning your body around, bending down, doing this, getting on your knees at times. All the exercise that you need is there. Do you see. So, that is how a society becomes decadent when things become too easy. When things be come too easy. It is no accident that teachers from outside come and teach these things because the American public is very very ready for these things. And yet, there is one big fault and it is this: having had things too easy, they become very gullible . That is

9. U S 80 - 29 one thing the American public must really watch out for: gullibility. Anyone comes with a certain idea and it is accepted. There will always be someone. Like the American saying, "A sucker is born every day." That's your American saying, isn' t it? VOICE: Every minute. GURURAJ: Every minute, every minute, they are. VOICES: ...more instantaneous... push button [???] manufacturing. GURURAJ: Yeah. You see, you see? That is one thing to be guarded against is all these various devices. One woman approached me in Illinois Chicago. She had an appointment with me. She wrote a letter to me of her experiences and she says, "I am now illumined." So I say, "Well I would like to meet an illumined person." So I told Vidya, please do fix an appointment with this person and I chatted with this person. Now, someone had devised a system of sound where they plug in things in your ears and rev up certain pitches of sound, and because of that sound, certain changes take place in the brain. Certa in rhythms in the brain are altered. And she said, "I saw light and I see this, and I see this. Am I illumined?" I said, "Look, if you were illumined you wouldn't ask me that question. You would know it." So I had to explain her her husband is a prof essor of something I had to explain to her that do not ever subject yourself to these electrical processes. For example, there in the chapel at Techni Towers, a lady sang for us some beautiful operatic music operatic songs, some arias and the acoustic s were so fine and her voice was so good that it went through our ears. I think Doug also experienced that you had the same thing, right. It went through the ears. Fine. Now, we know the value of sound, and sound at a certain pitch we also know can b reak windows and things like this. And this woman, being taken in, being gullible by this technical device that ran through sound waves at a certain pitch through her mind, and she thought she was illumined because it produced certain effects instantly i nstant illumination. So I had to tell her that this process that you went through is none different than getting electric shocks. In the one case electricity is used, electric current is us ed; and in this case, sound current is used. And, if you study de eper into this subject, you will find that there is not much difference between sound current and electric current because both are basically composed of vibration. So, certain changes took place in her brain and which could be and which are very detrim ental. For getting that certain pitch of sound which is manipulated could break down and destroy so many brain cells and she will feel the aftereffects of this.

10. U S 80 - 29 She'd just had it done, attended a session, a couple of sessions, recently and she, by killin g off the brain has certain areas which governs certain senses, and by damaging certain brain cells, certain effects can be produced. Now there are many examples, like Peter [Holcroft?], that psychic he climbed up a ladder and fell on his head and he bec ame clairvoyant. Because certain brain cells had been damaged which in turn activated other brain cells which gave him this kind of perception. But that has nothing to do with spiritual development. It is just a mental function. Same thi ng with [Si Ba ba?]. He fell at the age of fourteen he fell and damaged his brain and because the damage on a certain part of the brain activated another part, because there is always a compensatory factor so that he could manifest ash. But that, too, has nothing to do with spirituality. That has nothing to do with the truth, the Divinity of which man is composed. Our job is to reach that Divinity and be our real selves that we are, for everything is Divine and more so the thinking being tha t could recognize on a co gnitive level that Divinity which is inherent within us. So, therefore, all these various systems come about. And the public is so gullible that they would even subject themselves to this kind of sound treatment which is nothing else than the old Chines e form of brainwashing. People's brains can be brainwashed in such a way and then after brainwashing they can be made to believe certain things and they would believe it. So she believes "I am illumined." She was very grateful when I went into very very deep explanations about the things she had been through and she said, "Never again would I touch it." I said, "Good. Good." The best thing is to be totally natural and go through natural processes such as meditation and our spiritual practices which are very natural. It is gradual, yes, but very natural where you are not being manipulated by outside forces but you are using your own inherent forces. You are using your own mind to dive deep within itself and thereby develop a far greater and greater and greater awareness until it expands so much that you could hold the entire universe in your arms. Natural process which in turn brings about the qualities which we all desire, that of love and all those things connected with it: good fellowship, good love , good relationships that makes life smooth. And once one has that, that quietude of mind, then all other things follow. And I could never stop repeating the Biblical injunction, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven within and all else shall be added unto thee." Which is very very true. Once the mind is brought to a certain state of quietude, once the mind is led, or once one gets away from the grosser mind and goes to the deeper levels of the mind, then every desire becomes fulfilled; and that is what is meant by nature supports. But you've got to reach your real nature first before it can start supporting you. And this we do by very simple processes. So we have theory and we have practice. These talks are meant are aimed at putting a new angle to t hings, a new understanding. Many of the things we talk about, you know. It is hidden there, but just to be awakened. All knowledge,

11. U S 80 - 29 all wisdom, is in every person, right from the primitive man to the most intellectual person, all knowledge is there. Wh at is required is for that knowledge to be awakened and that is what the job of a guru is: to awaken. You see? So, when civilizations decline and when they have reached the hilt after you reach the peak of the mountain, where do you go from there? You only climb back to ground level again and that's what we needed: to be grounded, grounded in our real self. So, all these things that happen to civilizations their rise and fall is a necessary must, for it is a shif ting of energies. One civilization r ises and falls. Now, in its very fall because of decadence, those very energies are shifted to a different area. And it is a gradual process, it does not happen overnight. It shifted to a different area and that area agai n in turn develops. So the entire world and the entire universe is forever in a state of flux. Like the ocean, the wave rises and falls, and rises and falls. Now, the wave that rises in one place falls right next to it and re rises in another place. Similarly with the countries of th e world, when energies are shifted from one country to the other, the same process happens. It is forever ongoing. It is not stagnant. And that is the law of nature. And so when teachers come, they try to awaken, and the American public, for example, is the most receptive people in the world for these higher ideals of life because they have reached the peak and they have discovered the futility of it. They have discovered the futility of it. India had made great progress, and yet the Indians will not a dmit this, but the progress India made had a great part a great part was played by England. They had brought to India things which India needed. India needed lessons in hygiene, for example, India needed with its millions of population India needed mo dern agricultural methods which England introduced. England introduced a very fine legal system, and things like that. So everyone contributes something to the other. For example, America has contributed so much to Japan's progress. During the war when hundreds of thousands of Americans were over in Japan, they left some of their knowledge behind their technology, their know how they left behind upon which the Japanese started building. And Japan has become a very very highly industrial country today a nd so much more industrialized in the past thirty, thirty five years since the last war. So, in everything every country is connected to another country and it is all borrowing. Now, in India, for example, you have better discos than you have in America . Yes. They would wear better styles of Levis and jeans and what have you than you wear here. They've copied. They've copied. Right. One thing I tell the Indians, "By all means, copy! Yeah. But copy the good things. There are a lot of good things in America, hm? Why not that? Why the other things? Why only the sensual things, hm? There's so much good there. Why not that?" Yes, but the things that are not so good are more attractive because they're instant. Like this lady in Chicago, hm? Right. She went for these shock treatments because instant results were promised. I am illumined. Oh! How many millions of lives don't we have to spend to reach that state of illumination? And Jesus or Buddha or Krishna did not advise electrical devices to

12. U S 80 - 29 b e pressed into your head, did they? They advised you a very natural process. Yes. They taught the great principles of love through which you can develop and open up and make yourself receptive to all those Divine energies that are there. Now, receptivit y is a double edged sword. You can make yourself receptive to bad influences, and you can make yourself receptive to good influences. So the purpose of the realizations we try to come at the truth we try to discover and our meditational practices is to make ourselves respective to the higher forces: to betterment, uplifting forces. The others that are so permissive and do all things that are not to be done, they are also receptive, but their receptivity has been misguided, misguided. So, seeing that t he West has contributed so much to the East, they, too, must now accept what the East can contribute to the West. Perhaps in knowledge, perhaps in wisdom there's still a bit left there, but we do not need to learn from the East all these little tricks th at they get up to. We don't need that. We don't need that kind of poverty, for example. We would like India to become an affluent society, by all means, without losing spirituality. Now America is placed in such a fine position and England, too, is pla ced in such a fine position that within this affluence they could have the influence of spirituality. A wonderful combination can occur. And believe you me, take this as a prophecy, that within a hundred's years time Americans are not going to be the Am ericans we have today. They are going to be a highly spiritually advanced people without losing the affluence they have. Yes. Because the affluence will be influenced, as I said, by higher forces, by higher ideals. Greater love will permeate in each an d everyone's heart. Yes. This is on the charts. It can be well read. It can be seen by those that can see. Yes. Quarter past twelve. I was talking too long on such a small subject. Good. Mind you, the subject I spoke on... it's not really not my su bject because we cover everything. We always infuse spirituality into it. VOICE: What's the difference between non attachment and heartlessness and how can we avoid... how can we avoid heartlessness while we're trying to cultivate non attachment? GUR URAJ: How can we avoid heartlessness while we are trying to cultivate non attachment? The two things are diametrically opposed to each other. For non attachment requires great heart. Non attachment is not produced by heartlessness. It is produced by he art. Heartlessness would be detachment, as we spoke about the other day where the heart becomes cold like a stone and you detach yourself, while in non attachment you are filled with love, and that love is a love that needs no need. It is love for the sa ke of love itself, and that leads one to non attachment. So, don't ever think that non attachment requires being heartless. It is wrong. You have more heart in non attachment. You can be heartless if you have attachment. You are attached to a certain article to that chair, hm? And you can be cruel and heartless in acquiring that chair or keeping that chair, possessing it. There you can become callous and heartless. While being non

13. U S 80 - 29 attached to this chair does not mean you do not use the chair or you do not sit in the chair; and there's plenty of heart because you will see that chair with love and not with attachment. You will admire its beauty; you will enjoy its comfort; you will love it. But if that chair should break down or get stolen, it won't hurt you because you are not heartless. It will hurt the heartless person because "Now I have lost," while the person with heart will say, "What have I lost really? I've still got my heart." Like that. VOICE: Guruji, I know that when you can serve ot hers by sometimes telling them when they're doing something wrong, but isn't that judging? GURURAJ: It is. VOICE: ...and how can we if it's necessary, I mean, I don't even know how to ask this... I realize that it is judging, but sometimes it can help others to tell them or to... I.... GURURAJ: I know what you mean, yes. It is always the do gooder that wants to give advice, and if a person is qualified enough, then he is entitled to give the advice. But the advice has to be given in a totally loving manner and rather as a suggestion t hat, "Think for yourself; perhaps this might be a better way. But you decide you. You do it. This is just my suggestion as it comes to my mind." That is the way to do it. And that will have greater effect. That will have greater effect without being judgmental. You are not... VOICE: ...make the judgment. GURURAJ: You are not making a judgment on the person. You are analyzing the action. So there's no judgment at all. And your analysis could be wrong. Therefore you preface it by saying that, "This is just my viewpoint. Think about it." That's the way when it comes to dealing. But then with children again you act differently. You have to use the strap sometimes which is a good thing. Gets the blood circulation going on the backside! So, "do this, do not do this," does not really work. "Thou shalt or thou shalt not" it was good for a certain period in the time of history. Because the more you tell a person, "Thou shalt not," the more shall he. Yes. Because you're getting his mind set on that particular subject. Thou shalt not have dessert. You'll get fat. And you'll see that person's mind working on that dessert even while he is going through the other part of the meal. Ah! Dessert, dessert, I am not, not, not going to

14. U S 80 - 29 have it, but he ends up having it, you see? So, rather than saying, "Thou shalt not eat the dessert," rather say, "Oh, this dessert is really lovely, yummy! But I think it is very fattening, you know? I am not going to have it." Let him decide. And this is not tac t. This is not Dale Carnegie ism, because that could be very very false. This is pure statement of fact and stated very sincerely. Now, you know that the dessert is fattening and you do not need to say, "thou shalt not have the dessert." But say that thi s dessert is fattening and let the person decide. Because it is so so difficult to mold a person's mind. You can help that person to mold his own mind by himself or herself. No one can alter those patterns. One can help the person if the person wants t o alter those patterns. If a thief is a thief, you cannot make him a non thief. He's still a thief. But you can talk about things in such a way where his own pattern, his own thinking, will be altered by himself and not by me or you. It does not work t hat way. And, by doing it that way, you'd be showing great love for the person. You'd be showing an understanding that you're a thief, I understand that you're a thief. So what! I love you even if you are one . Yes. And then, very gradually you would point out how much harm it could do to himself. He's not worried how much harm it could do to others. Talk about the harm it could do to himself, and once that is planted in, then you talk about the others. So there are ways of teaching things to people because advice is so, as the saying goes so easy to give very easy to give. And then we have to examine ourselves, too. Are we capable of giving the advice? ***** END ****

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