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5. SA78- 58 not advocating to you vegetarianism, that comes on its own as we start meditating and as our whole system becomes more and more refined, then our desires, wants also become more and more refined, then the food we consume would be of a more and more refined nature and not of a grosser nature and that is one way to cur b within us the desire or the craving for killing. A person goes to the butcher shop and buys a meat, then I was told this, this I can eat meat because I haven’t killed it (laughs ). Yes, look at the logic , illogical logic. Illogical -- ill -- ill, that’s the secret of the word, yeah? (Laughs ). Yes, so killing which is done in advertently like walking through the passage and perhaps tramping a little insect that you haven’t seen, that cannot be helped. Eating fresh food and vegetables that also has life, it is a necessity, it’s a need to survive, but let us never try if we can, never kill higher forms of life and last but not the least, man . If scripture say that man is created in the image of God, killing that man, you’re killing God. If man is the manifestation of the manifesto, why destroy or what right have we to destroy the manifestation that is put forth by the manifesto? How can man evolve in doing that? How can man love his neighbours himself? How can man follow these injunctions? Now, killing has many different forms, not only physical killing. That is one form of killing, but there is another form of killing too, mental killing, emotional killing. When I studied the lives of some of the house holders that come and talk to me , discuss problems, I see that the man is wilfully destroying and killing his mind, his wife’s mind, her emotions, her whole being, that is also killing. Yes, and vice versa. You have women too that do the same (laughs ), yes -- yes, that is mental and emotional killing, which has a far greater effect than physical killing. If a man ha ve to go to war and shoot someone physically, he does not have that emotional attachment. So, the effect upon his own psyche would be less but to be cruel to ones loved one, it must re bound ten-fold upon yourself. For that is a far more severe form of killing. Yeah, that’s killing an object, bu t 99.999% of the world’s population are killing themselves all the time, every day, 24 hours of the day , they are killing themselves by harbouring negative thoughts within themselves, by harbouring malice hatred. They are killing themselves. They are destroying themselves and destruction means that you have created obstacles in the way of evolution and evolution means to reach home to your maker . That is the purpose of evolution, to reach back home from where you have come, to become one with that divinity again because he is there within you. It is just the realisation necessary that he and I are one. Now, by killing ourselves in this way, creating these obstacles through negativity, we are blocking the passage. Again, we suffer for it, we pay for it. That is another form of killing. Okay, physical killing, emotional killing and spiritual killing. Now, killing the word, I am using it in a relative sense. I have explained before that from the absolute view point, there is no

9. SA78- 58 Once you become established in meditation, once you can go beyond your mind and body, then at will, you can experience those worlds of the gods and goddesses. I go visit them very often, I know. Good . But, it is not necessary -- it is not necessary for your evolution. It’s nice to go for a holiday sometimes (laughs) . And you can spend a thousand years there in five minutes of meditation here. That is the experience , because through meditation, the heart expands, the mind expands and the expansion of the mind, the extent of the mind is as vast as the entire universe, and these gods and goddesses are in the universe and still in a relative shear . They too are relative as there is a difference between an animal and man, so a similar difference exists between man and a God. They too are still in the relative, and by being establish ed in meditation, one can experience all those existences here and now, but that is not the aim of life, not the intermediate stages in this lifetime we can reach divinity. The essence of all creations we can reach there and really experience that divine bliss. Okay, fine.

2. SA78- 58 us the heart beat in a cabbage. I think his name was J C Bose, an Indian scientist, he proved to the world that there is a heart beat in a cabbage. Lately, there have been experiments made with plants and they have found that the plant feels. A person approaches a plant with the intention of damaging it and the plant actually screams and that sound has been recorded by modern machinery. Now, things we eat has life. Everything existent in this universe has life. So, according to the laws of models and effects let us take life that is a necessity, that is really necessary to survive. So, the law of the fish has an effect and has some value to a certain extent. But when we abuse the law of the fish and kill things which are not necessary for our survival, then as I said, we are abusing that law. And this, from the plant, we come to the animal and from the animal, we come to man. Man says kill. For example, the wars we have in the world, it ’s nothing -- nothing else but murder, murder to uphold artificial boundaries created by man. Where one country is Germany, another Spain and another England and another South Africa. This world was not created with countries. Man made those countries and because of his own selfishness, because of the idea of the preservation of the ego for his own needs and wa nts, boundaries are created and those boundaries want to be preserved. You have World Congress that want to extend the boundaries and they do it by killing, not with love. Boundaries can be extended where a few countries can come together in a federation, without resorting to violence. So, it is totally wrong and the excuse given is this that I am defending my country. Are you defending your country at the expense of life? Good. So, now we have seen that no one can survive without some sort of killing. The carrot we eat has life; th is piece of wood, if we should saw through it, we are sawing through life, because every atom in this wood is life itself. Nothing exists in this universe but life and even mineral matter, the grosses matter is steaming with life. If you will take a stone and leave it outside for a while, for a few months, you find changes taking place in the stone. Now, the changes would take place not because of external circumstances, the sun and the rain in which the stone is placed, that plays a little part, but there is a quality in the stone itself. It is the inherent nature of the stone to change and why does it change, because it has life. So, now we have seen that everything existent in this universe is filled with life. For personal survival, let such life be taken that is a real need and a real necessity. Now, what is life? Can you really kill life? Can you really kill? We are looking at the subject now from a totally different aspect. Life is eternal and every scripture bears this out that life can never be destroyed. There is no death. What happens is this that there is a transformation like the old analogy of ours. You take clay and you mould a mouse with the clay and then with the same clay, you mould a cat, it’s a difference of form. One is a mouse, the other is a cat but

3. SA78- 58 essentially, it is clay. So, even if you break down the form of the cat and remould the same clay into the form of a little puppy, a little dog, you have not destroyed the clay. You have converted the form because the existence that we know of with our five senses -- seeing, touching, testing, smelling, hearing is only capable of perceiving name and form. But when man transcends the value of name and form and goes to the essence of things, he is incapable of killing. He will destroy one form and that form will be created into another form. Good. So, people kill for food and food is the essence of all existence. As we sit her e, we are nothing but a combination of various food stuffs that has made up this body. When a person dies and gets buried, that same body again becomes food for the insects in the ground. Good. So, your death -- of the -- the so called death of the physical body is giving value again as food to other creatures. Good. So, life is forever continuous. Now, remember we are talking of killing from a totally different aspect, not from the relative aspect where killing is wrong, “Thou shalt not kill”. That aspect “Thou shalt not kill ” was promulgated or expounded for different purposes. One of the purposes is this that you preserve society. You preserve a certain norm so that society can function. Good. The second aspect is this that killing is connected more with hate , by not killing -- by not destroying, you are building and anything which build is love. So, the injunction “Thou shalt not kill”, one of its primary purposes is to produce within you the love and the compassion so that you become incapable of killing. Good. Now, this can also be taken very far and to its extremity. There is a class in India called a certain caste of Jains . It’s a religion, but a certain section of the Jain people -- Jain religions that do not take a bath because they feel that if we take this bath, we will be killing all those germs and micro be s on the body. Yes, fanaticism . That’s why it is fanatics. The y do not realise that by -- by the person going around and spreading those germs, they are killing a much higher form of life. They are spreading germs to human beings which is a much higher -- higher -- higher form of life. So, that is one extreme of “Thou shalt not kill.” The other extreme is Hitlerism. Kill -- kill -- kill, and why? What was the motive? Because he wanted to produce a super human race which was not possible. This world will not produce a super human race. Human beings today are the same as they were five thousand years ago and non e different. We might have advanced technologically, we might have taken the minerals and the plants and the animals and converted them into all various kinds of things, but progress evolution is something that is within the unfoldment of the spirit, there lie s evolution and this evolution cannot be achieved collectively, but only through the unit. So, a person can become a super human person, but as an individual. It is an individual thing and if we have more and more people that ha ve come to a higher state of evolution, a greater rea li sation, then they could contribute in making this world a far better place. So, coming back to killing, one of the principles involved in “Thou shalt

4. SA78- 58 not kill ”, is to create in you the second commandment, “Love thy neighbour as thyself”. As a matter of fact, in all the commandments, that is the only commandment that is really necessary. For non-killing will follow if you understand the in junction, “Love thy neighbour as thyself ”, because what man is there if he loves his neighbour as himself would want to kill himself. The suicides we hear of, those are of demented people, we are talking of normal same people if are -- if the re are any (laughs ). Then so, if you love your neighbour as yourself, how can you kill yourself? Because, the inborn desire of every man is to cling to life. I have seen people of eighty years old, one foot in the grave, but yet battling to live, battling to preserve. If I die all the se beautiful house I have built, these beautiful gardens I have, all my money in the bank, if I die, I am loosing it all (laughs). So, that desire is for self-preservation of the ego, and that is why this clinging to life. No, there is nothing wrong in c li nging to life. If life can be useful, cling to it, but if life is misused, then rather go -- less burden on this burden full earth. Good. If life can be put to good use, then all is worthwhile -- all is worthwhile. And the only way life can be put to good use is to become better people. We, in our organisation, es pecially for the new comers that are her e, we -- we say, if you are a Christian, become a better Christian. If you are a Buddhist, become a better Buddhist, if you are a Hindu, become a better Hindu, and that is the purpose life. Now, what happens by becoming a better person, you are not doing anybod y a favour. We’re doing ourselves a favour because it is the inherent nature of man, the inherent want of man, the inherent desire of man consciously or unconsciously is to achieve happiness and that happiness only comes to us by becoming a better person and how do we become a better person, is by doing our spiritual and meditation al practices. When we sit down to meditate, we become oblivious of the mind and body and dive deep within ourselves to the kingdom of heaven which is there and when we dive deep within ourselves, we draw force that force and that subli me energy. We draw further sublime energy which would start permeating our minds and bodies and gives us the strength to live a better, saner, sober life. That’s what you need. It ’s all so simple really (laughs). So, man has no right to kill, but according to the law of the fish, it is inevitable, but let the killing be of a lower form of life than a higher form of life. If I have the choice of eating a cabbage or eating a chicken, I will choose the cabbage and not the chicken, the chicken has a higher form of life. If I have the choice of killing a tiger or a man, I will kill the tiger, not the man. So, we can use common-sense if something is a need and a necessity; choose the lower form, not the higher form, because by choosing every action we do must rebound on us. The lower the form of life, the less the rebounding, the higher the form, the more forceful would it rebound on us and would create in us greater and greater and happiness. I am

6. SA78- 58 death, there is no killing, but we can only assume that when we have reach ed the absolute and not until then, we are wayfarers and we’ve got to observe the rules of road. We got to observe and practice the rules that are made so that we could reach home, so that I could reach my father’s home . There are many others forms of killing -- many other forms of killing. Every word we say, let it be life giving. We have seen a person gets angry with another, how much harm has he not done to himself? One second of anger uses up a hundred times more energy than one second of laughter, we are destroying, we are killing. Look at the effect upon the object of anger. What destruction we have created in that person? How many people don’t spoil another’s day just by a word? That is also killing, for all destruction is death -- killing. Yeah, I think that’s about enough, I could go another hour on this (laughs ). Public: So let’s have another question. < 0:29:22.3 - inaudible > I’d like to hear your comments on and it goes like this. This is of the fragile existe nce between birth and death, can < 0:29:56.9 > ? Guru: Ok ay that’s very-very beautiful. The fragile communication -- Public: < 0:30:06.6 inaudible > Guru: The fragile communication which is existence between life and death is --- Public: < 0:30:16. 2 inaudibl e > Guru: Oh , oh God! No , life and death are not things apart. Life and death is but two sides of the same coin. It can be a fulfilment and it is a fulfilment if there is a dialog ue . What do you mean by dialog ue ? What do you mean by life? And what do you mean by death? That is the question. By dialog ue, we mean an understanding of the meaning of life and of the meaning of death for he that knows the secret of life knows not of death, the communication is complete. That is the purpose of dialogue, to be able to understand, to the able to realise what life is and what death is. Now, is there really a death if a man discovers that there is no death; Jesus said, I know of life and death, I speak of life and death, but I ask you to tell the teachings of life. Now , if it could be under, I might have the words wrong in the context of the way it was spoken, but it’s just the gist of it, the quotation. Now, if a person understands that there is no death and life is eternal, and every gap we find between one existence to the other is just but a transformation. Like we said earlier, the same clay can be moulded into a cat -- and into a cat or a mouse or a dog. The clay is not destroyed, and if there is no destruction to the clay, then -- then in essence, there is no death, a transformation. When we are ti red of the cloths we wear, we discard

7. SA78- 58 them and buy a new set of cloths, but you, the person is not destroyed, the cloths are changed. You are in this room and later you proceed to the next room. Different circumstances, different environment, different conditions, but you are still there . Now, understanding this is dialogue, that dialog ue ha ve to take place within one’s self to come to the realisation that life is eternal and there is not a single scripture in this world that will say life ends, they all say that life is eternal and death is a passing phase. Death is the greatest thing that ’s ever been given to man. It is the greatest gift of God, just as sleep is. Try and stay awake for seven days or ten days or even two days, how would you feel? Shakespeare said something very beautiful about sleep. He says, “Sleep is the best nourishment in life ’s feast”. In sleep you regenerate and rejuvenate yourself. There is no difference between sleep and death. It’s a difference of duration of time. And death is so vital and necessary to every creature for all that is born must die, that is the law, but to understand death, the secret of death, the meaning of death, the purpose of death is so that you can rest. We , with our daily living, so mixed up and muddled with our physical and emotional and mental selves that we could never stand aside and look at ourselves. Yes, meditators can. That is why we teach meditation. We cannot stand apart from ourselves and look at ourselves. We hav e not learnt how to face ourselves in the mirror, but when we leave this body behind, then we with our subtle body can look at ourselves, can evaluate ourselves. Just as in sleep, it gives your body and mind a rest, <0:35:40.6 rejuvenatory> effect. So duri ng the period of death, life is after death too and during that period when we leave this body, we have th is chance of rest. We are not tied up in those emotions that are so connected to the external environment. Then, with that rest and being able to stand apart, we evaluate ourselves and we formulate, we plan what to do next, what kind of life to take so that I can progress in my path and reach home to my maker. So, death is so important and understanding this is the dialog ue . Now, when we understand that by taking sleep, we will feel better tomorrow. If a person is not well, the doctor -- the first thing the doctor says, “Rest, stay in bed”. That’s the first thing the doctor says, “Have a good sleep”. Same thing, have a good day. (Laughs and coughs) because bodies can get worn out too and we need to acquire a fresher body to come back to life ’s school -- come back to life’s school. Children get six weeks holiday end of the year so they can have a rest and be fresh enough to go back to the same school to another standard, the higher standard. They need that rest before taking that standard. Everything in life shows you that there is a rest period between every two heart beats, there is a rest and every rest between two beats is a death. Man dies ten thousand times a day. That split second when there is a rest between two be ats that is a death. Like that, there

8. SA78- 58 must be a rest period. When you walk watch yourself, you will rest on one foot while you extend the other foot, you will rest on the other foot while you extend the -- from the right to the left or the left to the right. In everything in nature we observe around us, there is a period of rest and death is rest, for death too is life. But a form of life where it gives us a chance to regenerate ourselves, to evaluate ourselves and that understanding is the dialog and when we understand that we do not fear death, when we do not fear death, because we understand that it is just a changing over from one suit into another suit and life will go on eternally -- eternally -- eternally for if life seizes, God seizes, for God is life. If life seizes, God seizes. Life is eternal as God is eternal. Now, with understanding is the dialog ue and once one understands this and enters into this dialog ue within oneself, you find the fulfilment. Understanding is fulfilling, not fe eling fools -- F-O-O-L-S (laughs). Okay <0:40:03.3>. We have time for one more, go on. Public: In the < 0:40:10.5 > Guru: Good. As in some of the scriptures, you will hear stories of gods and goddesses . Now that -- now that is very true -- that is very true. Do not think that ours is only existence and that ours is the only planet. We , but just a little spec of dust, not even a spec of dust in the vastness of this universe. Now, if there is life on this planet, why should there not be life on other planets in other galaxies? Now, if we study the history of man going right back to the <0:41:23.5> and even further back, we have seen man has advanced to the level he is now. That would suffice one to know that there is still room for further advancement. For still higher beings and there are existences in other solar systems , in other galaxies and other planets where man exists as a much higher being than the being that we know of here and now as man. Now those existences, those beings that are of a higher stature are known to us as gods, and then we think these gods -- these angels, the re are also various categories, but they are definitely exist ent . It is a period, if you progress through a certain path, you too will become a god in an other world, in an other planet. But you can bypass that if you wish to, because man has all the ability in him. Man has all those little gods in him and he can live the life of all those gods her e and now as man. Man has all the machinery within him to realise divinity, but if he does not realise divinity in this lifetime and he passes to a stage, a higher stage of evolution where this world ly existence is beyond him now, or he is beyond that when he would go to a plain in the land of the gods from where still far way to go , but all these can be achieved here and now.

1. SA78- 58 Public: 7: 58, 7 th of January 1978, 7:58. We shall start this off with questions this morning (coughs). Guru: Are you comfortable there? Are you comfortable? Public: Guru < 0:00:27.2 > if you could answer question for us that have been concerning me. The s cripture says that, “Thou shalt not kill”. But, how do we cooperate with nature? Could you deal with the aspects of the mineral, the vegetable and the animal? Guru: Um -hmm yes beautiful, lovely question. (Coughs) The scripture says, “Thou shalt not kill”, now in its border aspect, killing is definitely wrong because if you cannot give life, what right have you to take life? But then, when this was said, it was said some thousands of years ago when technologically, the world was not so advanced. Today, you will know and science tells us that with every breath you take, you are actually killing millions of microb es because every way you go, everything you see is filled with life, it’s steaming with life. Now, there is -- there is killing can be divided into two categories, unconscious killing and conscious killing. Killing without intention and killing intentionally. Now, when we walk on the ground and we might inadvertently tramp upon some little creature. Now, that would be non-binding to you karmically. In other words, that would not create an impression or samskara on your psychic self for which you would have to pay. For every d ee d we do, we have to pay. There is a law of grace and at the same time, there is a law of retribution . So, when something is don e intentionally -- unintentionally, and without pre-thought, then you are not bound to pay for the action that you have pe rformed. But there has always been, through the history of the world, and scriptures will bear it out that the very taking of that life, although unintentional, has some effect upon your psyche. The effect is there because every atom, every cell within your body is definitely connected to every cell and atom that exists in this universe and that is why scriptures would tell you that do charity. Now, in the laws of karma, by doing charity we are creating -- we are creating a balance. So , even those things that are done without intention or unknowingly can be balanced by being charitable, by being kind, by being compassionate. Good. Now, w hen it comes to intentional killing, there the law of retribution will affect you and that is why the scripture say , “Thou shalt not kill.” As we said a moment ago, if you cannot give life, what right have you to take life? Now, there is a law of the fish. Big fish eats a small fish to survive. Every time you eat fruit or vegetables, there is life in that. But what form of life? Can man survive without taking any life? Science has discovered, one scientist has even given


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