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1. UK 77- 31 Gururaj. Shall we meditate together for five minutes? I'm ready. Questioner. The first question - hasn't got a name on it, so I will read it out for you. Gururaj. But has the paper got the question on it? (Laughing). Questioner. It’s about the mechanics of sleep. Amrit. Say that again. Questioner. It’s about the mechanics of sleep. Why do we have to sleep away one-third of our lives? What actually happens to us when we are asleep? And why do we sometimes wake up with moods for which one cannot find a reason or cause? Gururaj. Why do we have to sleep? Because we like sleeping. Good. Sleep is a necessary must. Not only for physiological or biological reasons, but also for psychological reasons and not only for psychological reasons only, but also for spiritual reasons which modern psychiatrists and psychologists have not been able to confirm as yet. Good. Now, we all know that during sleep the body finds its rest and rest is required for recuperation of the body. Good. That is known by all, by all those that do sleep. Good. Fine. The mind is over-wrought with tiredness during the day's activities and during the day's activities in the waking state of life, the conscious mind is active and that too requires some rest. Fine. Good. So the mind and body requires rest, which is an apparent factor which everyone knows. Now, does the spiritual self of man require rest? The answer would be no, because the spirit is always in a restful state. Good. Then why does the spirit require the rest? Now, if we study the mind and body, we know that there has to be certain subtle forms of energy in the mind and body that requires replenishing, a certain vital force that food and water cannot provide. Food and water cannot provide the needs of the body or of the mind. A greater need is required and that need comes from the very depths of ourselves, from the realm of that steadiness which is within ourselves. Now, when the mind and body goes to sleep, then only would the steadiness and the restful state within ourselves have a chance to play. When we meditate and we become unconscious of the body, or we lose consciousness of the body, then know that it is very similar to sleep. When we transcend the mind, when we go beyond the mind and at the time when the mind exists no more and when we are mersed or merged in that nothingness, we are in a state of sleep.

2. UK 77- 31 Good. So, in order for the spiritual self to shine through for the ordinary average man, the state of sleep is necessary which quietens the body, which quietens the mind, so that the spiritual energies in man can permeate the mind and the body and thereby giving it life. Now, here is an experiment that can be tried. Keep a man awake for a certain period of time, good, and that man will be driven insane. A Psychiatrist will bear me out. Good. Deprive the man of sleep and he will become insane. Deprive the man of sleep and his body will develop various kinds of illnesses and various symptoms of illnesses. The body too will become sick as the mind becomes sick. So, during sleep a very valuable force is generated that could keep the mind and the body together. So, sleep is invaluable to man and therefore man requires sleep. Now, as the mind becomes more and more calmer and calmer and calmer and reaches a more refined state, then we will find that the requirement of sleep would become less and less and less. Therefore, you would find Yogis not needing more than just a few hours of sleep and they can carry on because in spite of all their activity, there is that steadiness of rest within their minds. Good. And when there is rest within the mind, it automatically translates itself in the activity of the body so that even the very active body finds its activity on the basis of rest. So, therefore, sleep is a mechanism which is a necessary must for man to survive, man to have life and for man to preserve his sanity. This we know. What is that vital force that generates this power and that keeps man together, that is the question. And that vital force can only be described as a form of energy. Yet, that energy is so subtle that it cannot be measured by the instruments we have on hand or the instruments which science can provide. Science can only provide certain brain patterns during sleep where you have sleep laboratories and a man is plugged up to measure the states of the man's mind while he is asleep. But, it cannot measure that vital force, that subtle prana that sleep generates . Man has not as yet discovered that machine. Good. Because the day when he discovers that machine, will he discover mechanically what God is all about. So, science has been set an impossible task. Yet they persevere in trying to find what that subtle quality is. Up to now, we can only call it an energy force of such subtle level that we cannot measure it. So, therefore, we can see very, very logically the part sleep plays in man's life. Good. So, these three states of consciousness that we know of, waking, dreaming and sleeping form a part of man's existence. But it is only through the sleep state, the calmness of the sleep state, where the subtle force can come through. And that is why, when we are in deep meditation, we become oblivious of all our surroundings. The noise that seems so loud now during meditation, it would be so far, far away. Good. So, sleep is the intermediary factor between waking and dreaming and it is through the sleep quality within us, the sleep state within us, that dreaming can find expression and the waking can find regeneration. Good.

3. UK 77- 31 Why is it necessary for man to dream? Psychologists would tell you that you dream to express - Freudian psychology for example will tell you that a dream is an expression of a suppressed desire. Good. So, there is some truth in that. There is some value in that but up to now even the mysteries of dream has not been discovered by science. What is the chemistry involved in that dream state? Good. Is the dream state more influenced by the waking state or is it more influenced by the sleep state? And where does the waking state and the sleep state combine in the dream state? Where is the dividing line? These are questions that has not been answered. Good. The waking state might be a motivating factor because of association of ideas, because of conscious ideas so powerfully imprinted in the mind that it could manifest itself in the sub-conscious mind which is in the realm or the playing ground of the dream. Those impressions of the conscious mind could be so powerfully impressed in desire form in the sub-conscious so that, according to Freud, it can express itself in the dream. Good. So, we've got so far. It can express itself in the dream. But is that the only motivating factor? Good. During the day or during a period of time, you might have the desire for apples, but your dream might be of pears. Why? Why? Why? What has the sleep state stirred up within man? What has the sleep state stirred up within man to give active force to the waking state and by giving active force to the waking, what are the mechanics whereby the sub-conscious mind, the dream field of mind is activated? The sleep state plays a far greater part in the activation of the sub-conscious mind in dream. Good. The very actions, the very actions of the conscience, conscious state can create a link of association of ideas, but the sub- conscious mind as we know it, contains ideas not only of this small span of life. You might be 30 years old, 40 years old, 53 years old, 73, 74 years old. Are you 74? (Yes) Good. Righ t. So what comes out in a dream is not only the experience of your 74 years, not only the experience of your 74 years, because the sub-conscious mind contains within it experiences of lifetimes, many, many, lifetimes extending over a whole 'aeons', eons. Eons? Eons. Yes. How many years is in an eon? (Laughing) Amrit. No one has counted them! Gururaj. Millions and millions and millions of years through the progress of the human being, through the progress of the human mind or through the process of evolutionary progress, all these impressions are stored within the mind in the memory box. Now do you know that you can order dreams? You can order them by will. And that is still what science has to know about. You can order it; you can order a dream tailor-made. Yes. When you go into meditation and you go back into a past life and experience a past life, what are you doing? You are ordering a dream from a certain period of

4. UK 77- 31 time and it comes to you tailor-made, ready-made, factory-made. Yes. It comes. Fine. But the dreams the ordinary average man has, might seem very meaningless to him. The dream seems very meaningless because he is forever associating his dream with his conscious mind and his experience of his conscious mind in this lifetime, while that dream might have nothing to do with this lifetime. There might have just been too much strawberry and cream late at night to stir up something, some chemistry which could take you back into a previous lifetime. Good. And then the composition of a dream is not necessarily logical. The stirring up of the colour red might have been stimulated by the colour green. Or the colour green could have been stimulated by the colour yellow. I'm using an analogy and all analogies are imperfect. We know that. Fine. What we fail to understand is the content of the subconscious mind whose range goes over millions of years. And because of certain conditions in our evolution that all experiences to be had, are not enough in the waking state of life. So you can experience in one minute in dream state, a whole lifetime. What a great lengthening of life? Has anybody ever thought of it in that way? That you live for 74 years, right, and in one minute in that dream state, one minute or two minutes, you live another 74 years. That's 148 years. Fine. So, Psychologists will only tell you this, that the dream state is necessary as a release valve of tension, a valve to release tension, which is true to a certain extent. But, it plays a greater part as far as our Samskaras are concerned and that is why, because not understanding Samskaras and not understanding the vital force that sleep produces, we fail to understand our dreams and then what some people do so, so very, very foolishly is go and buy a dream book. If you dream of water, you are going on a trip. And if you dream of fire - whatever. It's a waste of time. A waste of time. A waste of good money which can be rather, be put in a charity box for the poor. These things have no value whatsoever. Good. So, let us get back. The subconscious mind or what we can term as the subconscious mind contains the memory of lifetimes of experiences. Now, during the process of our evolution, of which the mechanics are not yet known, it can only be experienced mystically and not mechanically. Right. We are brought to face up a situation which could be a combination of many, many situations. Right. And those many, many situations could be brought about in picture form or in story form and each piece of that story could be brought together from various lifetimes. Yes. The red shirt from one lifetime and the beautiful woman with the black dress from another lifetime, and they can be combined in that dream state. Why? Why? What impression did the red-shirted man have on the black-skirted woman? And it is a reliving of the impression that was created in the sub-conscious mind and that required experiencing it to the fullest value. And by experiencing it to its

5. UK 77- 31 fullest value, one is eradicating a Samskara or an impression. When people dream too much, then know that their minds are very turbulent and their minds require stilling and thank God that we have this state called a dream state. The Yogic mind very seldom dreams because his mind is quiet, still, - the ripples are not there that cause the dream. He very seldom dreams. And then of course Psychologists would say that everyone dreams and yet the dreams are not remembered. This might be true for the average man but how many Psychologists or Psychiatrists have studied the dreams of an Enlightened Man and how many Enlightened Men are there in any case. Okay. Fine. So, now the part the sleep state plays in this play of the dream is this that it provides the vital force to make man experience the deep impressions that were created in man's mind over a range of many lifetimes perhaps and certain circumstances were brought about in that composition, in that story of the dream whereby many things of many lifetimes become eradicated because we live through them. So whenever you have a dream, be very grateful, be very grateful. Even if you have a nightmare, do not be afraid, something good is happening. Something very good has happened by you having had that nightmare. It was some experience of fear that might have gone beyond lifetimes, beyond this lifetime into other lifetimes and so deeply impressed. That fear was so deeply impressed in the memory-box of your mind that it required expression and its expression was in the form of a nightmare. You might have been chased by a shark in one lifetime and in the dream it might express itself in another form of a giant chasing you. It might be experienced in another form. That does not matter. What matters is this, that the impression created, the Samskara created is now being eradicated. So, everytime you have a nightmare, don't run to the Psychiatrist. Say, 'It is good that I had this nightmare', until we reach a stage where dreams and nightmares are no more a reality to us. And in all this happening, in all this happening, sleep plays the most important part. Sleep is the stage, the in-between stage, the quiet stage of mind and body that allows that energy, that vital force to filter through. It filters through to give the body regeneration, rejuvenation, recuperation. It allows the conscious mind to still itself and it also allows the deep-set Samskaras in the sub-conscious to play, to come to the surface and by bringing it to the surface, it is wiped away. So sleep is so, so important in a person's life. Now, the difference between Samadhi and sleep is a matter of degree. Samadhi meaning deep meditation. Sleep is very similar to Samadhi. Sleep is very similar to meditation. Therefore, many times, many people while meditating, they fall asleep and of course that sleep results because of fatigue, because the body has reached a certain state of relaxation, whereby sleep overtakes them. Now to reach deep meditation, one also has to reach that state of relaxation of mind and body. And why one does not go into meditation but

6. UK 77- 31 goes into sleep is because the mind and body is tired and requires replenishing with that vital force. And so, therefore whenever you fall asleep in meditation, always remember not to get up suddenly but do five, ten minutes meditation more and then you get up. And that is the purpose behind what we say that after falling asleep, do not get up immediately, meditate for a few minutes. The difference is that while in meditation, while in a deep state of meditation, although you are oblivious of the happenings of the mind and the body, you are aware. Now, this kind of awareness has nothing to do with the mind, the conscious mind and neither has it got to do anything with the sub-conscious mind. It is in the realm where no external factor is required. It is in the realm where awareness exists by itself. It is empowered by itself. That awareness is consciousness and it is not the consciousness of the superfluous mind. It is not the consciousness of the sub-conscious mind, but it is the consciousness of the super- conscious mind, if you wish to use terms to describe something. Yet language is so, so limited so, so limited that it cannot express that which is inexpressible. So, we call it the super-conscious mind or we call it pure consciousness or we call it supreme awareness and the qualification of that supreme awareness is that it needs no outer support. It is a light that shines on its own without fuel, without petrol, without any thing to make it burn. It burns by itself. Supreme awareness, and in that awareness we really experience our real self or true being, what we really are. And the extent of that awareness, that super-conscious state, that pure consciousness is the entire universe beginless, endless, eternal, immortal, the all and everything. Okay. I hope nobody fell asleep. (Laughing). Questioner. There is a certain form, certain forms of mental illness .......... memory on the conscious mind even during the waking state and one person ........ anyone who had this experience couldn't tell the reality from that particular experience they had. Is this the same thing also in the sleep state where we have ........... (Inaudible) ... very unreal, distorted picture .... this kind of picture carries on through the waking state and this in fact is the kind of experience that say a mentally ill person could have? Gururaj. Yes. Next question. True, true. Questioner. Gururaj, we often come across people who seem to drain us of energy. Sometimes they are mentally or emotionally sick. Sometimes they are very domineering personalities or they may be a combination of these things. They seem to be unaware of the effect they're having and it’s often only after one has left them that one feels exhausted or even............... Is there a way in which we could cope with such people and help them without losing or own vitality?

7. UK 77- 31 Gururaj. Beautiful. Beautiful. I'll answer that as soon as I finish the water. Thank you. No man, woman or animal can drain us of our energy, never mind how negative a person is, never mind how many troubles a person has and comes to you, - can drain you of your energy. If that was the case then many Psychiatrists, many Doctors, many Priests would become totally energy-less because they are listening to problems from morning till night. So firstly, no one can drain us of our energies, but what drains us of our energies is, because we are giving of ourselves to that person. That drains us. Good. Now in consultation or in counselling, if we give of ourselves from a mind level or from a physical level, the mind and the body are not apart - I always say it’s just a matter of degree between subtlety and grossness. Good. Now, if we consciously with all effort because of the empathy or sympathy or antipathy - what does that mean? (Laughing) Amrit. That means that negativity or dislike. Gururaj. Yes. Good. Because of that, because of that we drain ourselves. That person is not draining us, but we because of the love we have, we empty ourselves. Good. Good. If the person is thirsty, if the person is thirsty, we give of our bucket full of water and say drink. But if we could have a bucket, that is connected with a tube to an inexhaustible well, then in spite of how much is taken from the one side, it is forever replenished. Now, that is the art, that is the art of how not to be drained. I was speaking this whole afternoon with people, consulting people the whole afternoon, and of course when people come and see me, they expect me to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Right and I talk, talk, talk, talk. They want to know abou t certain things and I just talk. Fine. Good. Not like the Psychiatrists, you know, they make you talk, and charge for you on top of it. Oh yes. Oh yes. Poor Shoki. Yes. Yes. That's the difference. That's the difference. So I talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, I don't mind talking. The person has a problem and I always like the problem to be stated as brief as possible, and sometimes that briefness takes twelve pages. It doesn't matter. Good. And then, then I start talking about it and analysing it from various angles and I'm sure there must be some angle that could penetrate. And when I see, when I see a certain angle penetrating, then I say 'Ah, now we've found the weakness and let's expand it more' and use that as a wedge whereby the person's mind is relieved of the problem. Good. But yet it is a complete mental strain. You're giving, giving, giving all the time. The only difference is this, that that bucket I have is connected up with a tube to that inexhaustible well. So that all that is taken up, all that is scooped up is being refilled by fresh water all the time, all time.

8. UK 77- 31 And that is why, that is why we don't feel so tired. Although of course the body has its limitations and requires that five, ten minutes rest and we can recoup again, get the cells functioning again as they should function. Good. So, the question, the answer to the question should be very, very brief and very simple that no one drains us. It is we that keep on giving and not having developed the art of replenishing ourselves, we would feel tired and drained. Now, if you are a professional person, say a Lawyer, an Advocate, Doctor, Psychiatrist or whatever, right, then what would be very good to do, what would be very good to do, that after each interview you have a ten minute break and for that - I see you shaking your head - automatically. You take a ten minute break and you close your eyes and you're a meditator and you have been taught the art of meditation. Close your eyes and just go into meditation for that five, ten minutes and you are replenished with the energy. Because that meditation has opened the valve and the water starts flowing into that bucket again, and fills the bucket. Then let the next person come and take away as many thimble-fuls as they like. Yes. That is the art. Questioner. Guruji, in an o ut -patient department where the secretary keeps on knocking and ....... (Inaudible) Gururaj. True. Well, if the secretary keeps on knocking, you should know how to knock her back and there is also an art in doing that, oh yes, where she won't feel bad at all. You send her to make a cup of tea and you'll have your ten minutes rest. Questioner. Is it possible for one person to take upon his shoulders the negative karmas of other people? Gururaj. No. Is it possible for one person to take upon his shoulders the negative karmas of other people? Good. Now, there are many opposing views to this. You'd have certain religions that would tell you that 'I bear your burden and I carry your cross.' There are religions that tell you that. Good. Fine. But it depends, that is very true, that is very true but it depends how we interpret it. A lot of truth has been lost because of distortion and misinterpretation. When I take over your karma, what I mean by that is that I show you the way how to eradicate your karma. I show you the way. I would bring to your attention, I would make you face up to the problems and by knowing what the problems are, we can be rest assured that those problems have been created by our past karma. So step one in taking over your karma, is for me to make you face your problem. Step number one. Step number two would be that, after you face your problem and you recognise your problem, you want to get rid of your problem. Step number four would be after finding the solution to the

9. UK 77- 31 problem, how you are going to apply it to the problem. And when you succeed in applying the solution to the problem, your problem disappears and your karma has been wiped away. So, who is ridding you of your karma? You, yourself. But when I say that I have taken over your burden, does not mean that I've taken over all your sins. Good. Because then it would be so easy for humanity. Then all the laws of karma, all the laws of grace, all the laws of evolution can be thrown in the dustbin because we just say, let me keep on sinning and someone will come along and take over my sins for me. But the real interpretation of the taking over of sins or karma is this, that the Man or Divinity comes in the form of Man, as a Son of Man, to understand man, to understand the problems of man and show man the way how to alleviate his problems. And that is lifting the sins off your shoulder and your burden becomes lighter. That is what it means. Okay. And that develops in us a sense of independence, a sense of independence that within me, ‘I am Divine, within me, I am Divine’. And by being shown the way how to express that Divinity, all the rough edges would be smoothed away because it is only Divinity that can smooth away those rough edges. But we got to do something, we got to go to the hardware shop and buy the sandpaper. So, we always say 'God helps those that help themselves.' Now if, if that was not true then you can accept that someone else will take my sins away. Someone else will take my sins away has been very wrongly misinterpreted and here the answer is so simple in the same Gospel where it says 'God helps those that help themselves'. And the Son of Man comes to show you how to help yourself and how to rid yourself of the burden. Good. It is like a teacher. If you are interested say in carpentry, you want to become a carpenter, then you have a teacher who teaches you how to do carpentry, how to make the table and the chairs and whatever is to be made. He teaches you that and then by you making it, you make a living for yourself. And then you live. So, to rid oneself of karma, one has to be shown the way how to get rid of karma and by being shown the way, you start living. Therefore I am the way, I am the life and I too am the love. Okay. Fine. Questioner. Does the action of the law of grace disturb the equilibrium of the law of karma? Gururaj. No. No. No. Does the action of the law of karma disturb the equilibrium? Questioner. No, it’s the other way around. Does the action of the law of grace disturb the equilibrium of the law of karma?

10. UK 77- 31 Gururaj. No. No disturbance at all. It works in an equal manner. It always preserves equilibrium. It always preserves equilibrium. In this way that say, a road is filled or has so many holes in it and you pour down a sheet of water, a river of water; now the large hole will take in it more water and the smaller hole will take in it less water, but on the surface it is a flat sheet of water. So, when the Law of Grace is invoked, then you will get from the law of grace whatever you need and if your effort is strong enough, your needs would be met because the Law of Grace like the rushing river, is forever fair. I t does not want to measure the size of your hole, if it’s big or small. The Law of Grace itself is doing its dharma. The Law of Grace itself is doing its duty by rushing across the crevices and whichever is demanded of it, it supplies but it is up to us. It is up to us entirely to invoke that Law of Grace and it is there just for the asking. And it is there just for the asking. So no equilibrium is ever disturbed. It brings about equilibrium in the disturbance. It brings about the balance in the imbalance. And of course when we talk of the Law of Karma, we must not only think of the Law of Karma in the terms of bad karma. Look, there is good karma, also. Karma is the law of action and action can be good action and action can be bad action and whatever is required, we get. If we invoke the Law of Grace, we get. We get always, always, always, always, always until we reach the stage where we go beyond the Law of Karma. And when we go beyond the Law of Karma, then we are in the land of Grace. Then we don't demand anything from the Law of Grace. We become that Grace. We become that Grace. Nothing is given from it, and nothing is taken from it. But what we have to do is to go beyond the Law of Karma and the Law of Karma too has it opposites, the good and the bad. That's all. That's all. So simple. We can be enlightened tomorrow. One hour or shall we carry on a bit more? Are we tired? Oh, have we got another meeting after this? Oh yes, checking the Mandala Practices. Oh yes. Good. Sure. Fine. It'll take me about ten minutes to have supper and then we can meet. Half an hour. END

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