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1. UK 83- 23 Questioner. I've had two handed in by a bunch of people. Shall I ask those first? Gururaj. Yes. Sure. Questioner. When working in a business life, how can one relate the spiritual world to this, so that you can remain unattached? Gururaj. Now there is no difference between home life, business life or spiritual life. They are but aspects of the same thing. Now even in your business, you can be very, very efficient in your work or business and yet be totally non-attached to it. Now what do we mean by non-attachment? There is attachment, which you know of, then you have detachment which means more a form of escape. Many of the Yogis and Saddhus I've met in the Himalayas, while trudging around for many years searching for truth, I've found Yogis that were away from the world and living in caves but they were not non -attached. They found detachment as a form of escapism. When they could not be efficient in their lives, they ran away. Now, that is detaching yourself from the world. But non-attachment means to be in the world and yet not of the world. So if in your business you are doing a million pounds, - doesn't matter, carry on. It's the sound of the Divine. (General laughter). Bravo. All noise is of course the sound of the Divine because there's nothing else in the world but sound. Look, when we say 'First was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word is God', what do they mean by Word? Word means vibration and vibration is sound. So when some people tell me 'Oh this sound disturbs me or that' - as a matter of fact over tea I was discussing with someone that 'Can you meditate in any noise?', I say 'Oh yes, I could sit in the middle of Regent Street or Oxford Street London and still meditate', because I would incorporate all that sound within my meditation. I regard it to be Divine, or else I could just cut off the auditory sense and hear nothing. And everyone can do it. The things I tell you, you all can do. Fine. So, non-attachment is where you are fully involved if your business does a million pounds turnover, why not make it two million? I have always said if you live in a ten roomed mansion, why not a twenty roomed? But do not be attached to it and that is non-attachment. Because the very basis of attachment brings you unhappiness and misery. I think I have told this story, I don't know in England or some other country, where this man past eighty was lying so ill in bed and he asked, he was on the verge of death and he asked his wife 'Where's John?' So she said 'He's standing on your right hand side'. 'Where's Jack?' 'He's standing on your left hand side'. 'Where's James?' Oh, he's standing at your feet'. So all of a sudden the old man got a bit of strength and he tried sitting up a bit and he shouted, he says 'If all of you are here,

2. UK 83- 23 who's minding the store?' (General laughter) Do you see, that's attachment. Here a person is just about passing away, and he's still thinking of his store, as if he's going to take it with him. Do you see? That is non-attachment, where you enjoy life because life is joy itself, but you are not attached to it. For example, if I get served with a dry piece of bread or a king's feast, I'd choose the better, that's for sure, but if I have the dried piece of bread, I will not hanker for the king's feast. That is non-attachment. So likewise with the same principle, you can be in business and make your business spiritual. You can be a householder, a homemaker as the Americans would say it, and still be very, very spiritual. You regard this as a piece of cloth and wood and things like this. I regard this to be God. Because the same atoms, the same molecules that are in here are in me. We are made of the same substance. This chair might not have the consciousness that I have, but it's only a difference of degree. It's not a difference of kind. So everything is based upon this atomic or sub, sub sub-atomic matter. And matter and energy are but two sides of the same coin. Do you see? Now if we learn to understand that and have that attitude, then everything around us would seem Divine, and when everything seems Divine then it is spiritual. Do you see? It is of the spirit. The spirit is very, very, very, fine, not perceptible by our five senses, but it is experienciable, while other things, like this table and this chair, this jug, they are also made of the same substance but, because those vibrations - everything is vibration, - because those vibrations being congealed, they become perceptible to our five senses. So, spirituality, materiality and all these things are but one. It all depends how we look at it, and if w e have the proper attitude and the proper understanding, and that is why I go round the world lecturing, to give people a proper understanding of things apart from the practices that'll help them to understand better, because practices brings about a greater awareness within you. So that is the path to joy and happiness in life. Good. Next question. There was this father, oh sorry. I said while you're looking up, we'll have a little fun in between. The father was showing this little girl the wedding photos when he married the girl's mother. So the child was sitting next to him on the settee and he was showing the wedding photos you know and trying to explain about when they got married. So the girl says 'Oh Daddy, I do understand. Was that the day when Mummy came to work for us?' (General laughter) You know poor, the women, they have so so much to do, so much work to do. But you know we men don't appreciate it too much, do we? Of course we do. Male chauvinism. Good. Questioner. This question Gururaj, arises out of a discussion some of us were having about healing. Gururaj. Ah hah.

3. UK 83- 23 Questioner.(Cont’d) Some healers offer healing to people whom they feel need it, without actually being asked. Is this correct, or should healers wait to be asked in the way that when Jesus healed, people came to Him rather than Him to them? Gururaj. That is very true. Now my way is practically the same with a slight difference. We won't go into the mechanics of healing now but I would never heal someone unless the person comes to me. But if I see a person in trouble, in pain, in misery, my heart would flow to that person and in that very flow, with the strength of thought and spiritual force, I would even unconsciously send out a healing energy to the person. So therefore you'd always find in the company of true Spiritual Masters a great peace descends upon you. And people specially that are meditators and doing spiritual practices, do keep that spiritual force alive in them so they could enjoy life more. Now, when it comes to healing, let's think about this - at the time of Jesus, there were hundreds of thousands of people that were blind. There were thousands and thousands that were lame. There were thousands and thousands that were deaf. But if we read the Scriptures, why did he only heal just a few blind and a few deaf and a few lame. There are reasons for that, and the true Spiritual Master knows that very well. A person is suffering of an awful disease and if the time is not right and if you heal that person, what you are doing is this, that you are transferring that very ailment to the person's next life, where he or she will have the illness, perhaps not in the same form, but the suffering would be there. Then again, I think I mentioned this on the Course, then again, certain healings are such that would relieve the person of the intensity of that disease so that, it is not transferred over to another lifetime. And again, if a person has ended a certain karmic debt and just about at the end of it, then the Spiritual Master would give the person a little push, so that h e or she could overcome it. It's like a schoolmaster I always say, that you have a pupil in school and you need fifty percent to pass, and the child achieves only forty eight or forty nine percent. And the teacher knows that look a whole year of the child is going to be wasted, so he'll award the child a mark or two extra so that it could go on to the next standard. That's what a good teacher would do. So that is how it works when it comes to healing. We are teachers of knowledge, wisdom and the practical side of the theories is the, the practice of various forms of meditation and all other kinds of spiritual practices. We do not put ourselves out as healers, but if anybody is in trouble, I or the healers to whom, through the grace of God I could transfer the abilities, of course it would be their bounded duty to relieve any misery or suffering that someone is afflicted with. And if they are approached, they are bound not to say no. You have come, and you shall not go back empty handed. That's my principle. Anyone comes to my door will never go

4. UK 83- 23 back empty handed. If I only have one slice of bread in the house, I'll share it with that beggar that would knock on the door. That is our dharma, that is our duty. For what else is life worth? You make millions of pounds and you'll pop off tomorrow. You're not going to take it with you, right. You amass this and you amass that, you're not going to take it with you. But through spiritual practices if you have amassed merit, which is interpreted in joy and happiness and peace of mind, that is going to come with you. Because once your inner self, your soul, is at peace, then that is the portion that caries on, not the body. So therefore the age-old saying which everyone knows 'What's the sense of gaining the whole world and losing your soul'. So therefore to find great peace within ourselves and help humanity, that is what will come away with you, that is what you are taking with, and that is what you are made of really, not this bag of bones and blood, as I always say if you melt it down into its chemical value, I think you'll get about forty pee for it, and with inflation perhaps sixty pee, who knows? You see what's it worth? Nothing, nothing. But the love you can radiate, and the more at peace you are within yourself, the more integrated you are, the more love you can radiate and give and feel. And then that Old Chap up there which we call God is not so far away you know. He's not far away, He's closer than you yourself because you are made of His essence, do you see? Next question. You know this man came home very tired, so of course his good wife, you know he just flopped down on the armchair, he was so tired so his wife came along with a long cool drink - soft drink you call it here? Yes. So she says 'You seem very tired today'. So he says 'Yes, I am very tired. All the computers broke down and we all had to do our own thinking'. (General laughter) Good. Next question. Questioner. I wanted to follow on Guruji on what you've just been saying about healing. I haven't formulated this question properly in my mind, it's just Gururaj. Doesn't matter. Questioner. (Cont’d). There may be many of us here who may feel instinctively that just suddenly at any time of the day that they are with someone who is in trouble or someone is ill, that they just feel instinctively they want to take some part in trying to heal that person. They haven't had Gururaj. Proper training

5. UK 83- 23 Questioner. (Cont’d). By you Gururaj. And passed on, yah, Questioner. But it's just listening to feeling, they go ahead and you know it's important to carry this out. Gururaj. Yah, yes. Well I might as well go into very briefly though, there are two kinds of healing. There's magnetic healing and there's spiritual healing. Fine. Now in magnetic healing what happens is this, that you're transferring your own spiritual energies by thought force to the other person and it makes the other person feel a little better. But here's a great danger in this, and the danger is this, that with the positivity you have in you, you are also passing on your negativity. Right that's magnetic healing, while spiritual healing is totally different, where the energies, I would never make any person a healer unless the person has the potentiality. And by transmitting these healing powers, we stimulate that potentiality so that it can be used powerfully and forcefully. In spiritual healing the first thought in my mind that is there is 'I am not the healer, I am just a channel. I am just a channel, I am not the healer'. And you know by doing certain practices, that universal force, that universal energy flows through you to the other person and the person feels it immediately, you see? So no harm is done to you, the healer and so much benefit is accrued by the person that is to be healed. Now if you feel instinctively, now of course instinct is a word that could be defined in many ways but you have a feeling within yourself that I should help this person - does this feeling really come from the heart or is it just a mental thought that is there? Is it totally selfless or is it perhaps ego-orientated? Now these things one has to think for oneself I mean and decide upon it. And then those that are not formalised healers, who are really taught healing, the best thing they can do and still be very helpful, is to close your eyes and picture that person, for example, if he's lame, you visualise him or her as walking, running. You picture that person to be well, and not ill. And then after visualising that, you try a nd cover that person in a blue haze, blue colour - which is very healing, blue haze - and by you thinking positively that person is well, you'll find those thought forces helping that person. Yes, it definitely does, because thought is so powerful, thought could pierce a door twelve inch of steel or whatever. It could travel thousands of miles in an instant of a second. It is as fast as light, a hundred and eighty six thousands miles per second, so fast it is. Many times I get letters from al l over, I have a very large mail and being such a large mail, I can't reply personally but I encourage people to write to me of their problems or their happinesses or whatever. And as I read these letters, as I'm reading them, I'm in a sort of semi-

6. UK 83- 23 state of meditation I send thought forces to them that helps them. And then a week or two later a reply comes and they thank that 'Oh my problem is solved'. It is the mercy of Divinity and we that are channels of that Divinity, we should reall y be grateful to be used in such a way by that Force and that Power, to be able to help our fellow men, for are we not our brother's keepers. We are. Okay. Fine. While you're thinking over the next one, this Minister was giving a sermon on intemperance. He says if he has his way he'll take all the liquor and pour it down the river. And then after this long sermon on drinking and intemperance and all these things and pouring all the liquor in the river he says 'Now turn to hymn ninety-four'. And hymn ninety-four was 'Let Us All Gather at the River'. (General laughter) Good. Next question. Questioner. I've got one, if I may be permitted to ask it. Gururaj. Yes. Please, please. Questioner. It stems really from this morning's talk about violence. To what extent could a meditator become involved in counteracting violence in the world, whether it's nuclear or otherwise, by being involved with anti-war demonstrations and so on, or should one become indifferent to the world with its problems and concentrate solely on personal evolution? Gururaj. Chapter one. Chapter two? (General laughter) There, great discretion is required. Demonstrations at times do serve a purpose, and at times it creates more violence, for example against certain discriminatory laws in some countries. Ho w many demonstrations has not been held at the Consulates and Embassies of those countries but no change has come about. But yet those rulers or those lawmakers are made to feel that we are not in agreement with you. They are made to feel that. So, discretion must be used but do not have a demonstration against violence and the demonstrators themselves become violent. Because many times at demonstrations, fights break out. At demonstrations when the police charges you with their batons, have you the strength just to sit down still? If you can do that and let the police beat you up then you are truly demonstrating because you would be displaying a spiritual force. Do you see? I too was involved in political matters as a youthful rebel not agreeing with Gandhi, for example. There was a big write-up in quite a number of the American newspapers on my last trip, when they asked me about the film, Gandhi. I was invited by the Indian Embassy to attend the premiere, and after the Premiere they had a cocktail party where Richard Attenborough was there. And by the time we finished talking, I started calling him Dickie. And I met all of the stars and a ll

7. UK 83- 23 of those people there plus the Embassy staff and people of other embassies as well. And I disagreed with Gandhi. I studied his teachings, but I disagreed with him because it was through him that India was partitioned, made into India and Pakistan. Right. And in the name of non-violence and by the creation of that partitioning which was just the idea of one man, Mohammed Ali Jinnah who was a fanatic. And we all knew that he was dying of tuberculosis, we all knew that, that he had just a few months to live. In the last stages he lived on whisky and cigarettes alone. We knew all those things. And if Gandhi and his crew had to wait a bit longer then the independence would still have been gained without Partition. It was the insistence that India should be divided and in the name of violence, millions of people have been killed. So what kind of non-violence is that? In the name of non-violence so much violence has taken place. And in this film, which is a very, very good picture, very well made - it won about eight Academy Awards, - there were things I told Dickie, I said I don't agree. I say here you have pictured Gandhi as a saint. I do admit that Gandhi was a great man, a man that could capture the imagination of about three hundred million people, I mean you have to be great for that. But he was a shrewd politician, was a shrewd politician. He knew how to capture the pulse, the imagination of the peasants of India - and eighty percent of them are peasants. So, brilliant man, great man if you could do that, but he was no saint. His poor wife, Kasturba, used to sit with his monologue you know, and keep her awake till three in the morning. At the age of seventy, he had two young girls sleeping next to him to keep him warm. He said 'This is my experiment with truth'. So many other things - and he used to get angry - because I lived with him for three months at the Bardoli Ashram. I was still a young lad then though, but I've always been more advanced than my age, do you see? The film was very well made, it's a good film, worth seeing, very good, it gives you an idea. And then the other objection I had was this, that you showed the Britishers to be cruel and without feeling. But that is not true. Look Britain might have done so many things in India perhaps, but they must have done something good as well. Now why don't you, why did you not in your film show both sides of the picture because no-one can just do all bad and not do any good. And I personally know, I could give you hundreds of instances how much good British rule of India did. So these were the things we were talking about. So nevertheless, demonstrations are okay, if they could produce some results. You cannot be indifferent all the time and in all circumstances. If somebody attacks your home, some thugs attacks your home, naturally in self-defenc e you are going to protect your wife and children. Nobody says you must be indifferent and let them massacre your wife and children. No, that's not non-violence, that's stupidity. So, you have to have that violence but in defence of that which is right and true because that defence wherein some violence is involved is inspired by love for your wife and your children. Do you see? So you can not make a general rule. You've got to go according, everything has its own merits

8. UK 83- 23 and you have to act according to the merits of the thing. Oh they had headlines in the newspapers in America when I attacked Gandhi on these issues. Yeah? Questioner. I'm terrified as a new meditator of asking but I'll ask this as a woman and Gururaj. As a - what about the meditator? Questioner.(Cont’d) As a new meditator. Gururaj. Oh wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. You're asking about a woman, I think that's God's greatest creation. (General laughter). Questioner. This comes out of the conversation we had at lunchtime, about the fact that there are more women here than men and in the churches in the western world at least, there are more women involved. And yet historically the great spiritual leaders have chosen to incarnate into a male body. And I am just wondering if the situation is changing in terms of male-female roles or why it is that everybody from Buddha to Jesus Christ to everybody is a man? Gururaj. Very good, very good. Gururaj. Very good. You see there are more women here because I'm such a handsome guy. (General laughter). Don't take that seriously, because I'm not. I was when I was a young man, oooh the young girls used to follow me around, hear that? Doesn't apply today, I'm an old grey-haired old chap you know - but I'm a great lover - I love. Now that is all by the way of jokes. But I tell you that in all spiritual movements and I have made a survey of this, that you'd find the ratio seventy to thirty. Seventy percent in any movement or organisation, specially that are spiritually minded, religiously minded, you'll find seventy percent women and thirty percent men. The reason is this, that by nature women are more gentle, women have more patience, women have more tolerance, women have more devotion, and qualities like those. And they are born with these qualities because they are mothers or potential mothers. And if you don't have - I mean many of you are mothers here - and you don't have the qualities of patience and tolerance and forbearance and what- have-you, you could never be a good mother. So these qualities are inborn in women. Therefore because of their devotional nature, they will be more attracted to these things. And I tell you one thing, that every man in a previous life, or the one before that, has been a woman, definitely, because you could never achieve Nirvana or total realisation or liberty

9. UK 83- 23 without experiencing yourself to be of both sexes. In some lives, you are a woman to learn certain lessons and in some lives, you are men. Now a man is a fighter, and he is the hunter. Adam, okay he went out hunting. So man is a go-getter. Woman is supposed to be, because of the femininity she would be more subjected to all kinds of attacks - and I don't mean sexual attacks - but all kinds of deprivations and what-have-you, while a man can stand up, he is the protector. Now why are Saints and Spiritual Masters mostly men? The reason is very simple, because he can go out and do his work while it would be difficult for a woman to do that because she has to look after her children, you see? And in any case in every man there's a bit of a woman and in every woman there's a bit of a man. So there's no difference and I've met so many women saints, not so many of course, you know how many saints are there? I've got too many fingers on one hand to count them all. Right. So I have met for example, Swami Ridyananda and I worship her like a mother. What a highly spiritual soul? She was an eye specialist, then she chucked all that up and she does the work that I am doing round the world. A very knowledgeable, a very highly evolved person. So you do have many of them and if we go through the history of the world there have been many women saints. You find Alohabai, Meerabai and all of them in the West, Saint Theresa and saints like that and even the Saint Theresa that we have now that has been doing so much work in Calcutta amongst the poor. It's the same thing isn't it, oh yes. So there is no differentiation but there are certain jobs perhaps are more suited to the male and therefore there's always been male spiritual giants that would go out although the female spiritual giants would stay in the background because of cultural upbringing up to now. But now with the greater equality being developed - and I'm not talking of women's lib - but a greater sense of proportion being developed, you will find in future generations, more and more women will be doing the work that I am doing, for example. You see. So it's fine, it's nice to have this combination, because actually man complements a woman and a woman is complementary to a man, where there's no such thing as one is big and one is low. There might be some division of labour. There might be some division of labour, a man can't give birth to a child can he? You see? So there are certain things for which men are better equipped. For example you have to shift the piano, are you going to do it? No, the man is built stronger, perhaps he could, do you see? That's what I mean by division of labour. So but yet there should be this total equality and a woman should never feel inferior to a man and neither should a man feel inferior to a woman, because there's no such thing. It's the same spirit within them and each one does his job. Yes. A father, if the mother is not there, if something happens to the mother, a father could never look after the children as well

10. UK 83- 23 as a mother could, never. He'll be kind and loving, but not that quality that the mother could give because there's greater affinity between a child and the mother than the father and the child, you see, because he was nurtured in the mother's womb. Now I gave a talk on that relationship on the Course and there is a tape there we made on the mechanics of a child's mind. It's worth listening to. Good. Fine. Talking of girls, this fellow goes to his friend, this fellow goes to his friend and says, 'Charles, I am in a dilemma, I don’t know what to do. Now there are two girls I love. Now, I don't know which one to marry. Now the pretty girl is poor and the plain girl is rich. Who should I marry?' So the friend Charles, says to him, he says, 'I think you're more interested in the poor girl and she's pretty, and you like pretty women. You're a handsome guy and you want a pretty wife, though she's poor'. So John says, 'Yah, I think that is what I am going to do, marry the pretty girl although she's poor'. So whil e John was leaving Charles shouts out, 'Oh by the way what is the address of the plain girl that is rich'. (General laughter) at the end of a sentence (General laughter). Oh yes, so we can really do something ourselves and thereby help because it is the units forms the whole. And in our own way if we do that, then one day when we leave this body, we can say 'Well lived, this life, well lived'. In other words we do and must always strive to leave this world a better person tha n what we came into it. And as for as spiritual practices are concerned, naturally a lot of cleaning up is required, so that gradually you start gaining the true experience of life. And there are many people that don't experience anything, and by experience, what I mean is the flashy experiences. Someone wants to see lights and stars. There's a easier way to do that, use a baseball bat, bam. (General laughter) Yes, yes, yes. But a meditator can be spotted off a mile away, yah. In the beginning as you start meditating, those of you that have not, you'll find your friends recognising that in you, even before you recognise it. Questioner. Talking about men and women. What about those that are neither one or the other, who have always existed, maybe more publicity is given to it today? They would appear to have chosen a very difficult incarnation. Can you explain it or what our attitude should be towards them? Gururaj. Our attitudes towards homosexuals and lesbians, that's what you mean, don't you? Yes, say it in plain words. I am like a brot her -father, here. Our attitudes towards them should be of sympathy, because they can't just help it. Now when you approach Doctors and Psychologists and these people, they say that something went wrong with the genetic construction when they were conceived or something went wrong with the chromosomes and things like that, but they don't know what. Now many times people ask this question but the medical sciences have no real answer. And the

11. UK 83- 23 answer is this, which only a mystic can tell you, after going deeply into meditation because travelling around the world all kinds of questions crop up. The answer is this, that in a previous life, the woman because of her life then was subjected to so much misery by her husband or by her family or all kinds of things by the bosses, what have you, was subjected to so much misery that she had such a strong desire 'I wish I was a man, I wish I was a man'. And that desire was so strong that although because of the evolutionary process she had to be born as a woman, but because of that strong desire, she developed a greater percentage of male characteristics and therefore was born halfway on the path. That is the reason. I spoke to some scientists about it and they seemed to think I've got a real point there. The thing is, how am I going to show them the past lives of a person, you know? I mean I could go into it and see it, but how am I going to prove it in a test-tube to the scientists? Questioner. Does that apply to lesbians as well? Gururaj. Yeah, that applies to lesbians, the same, same principle. That is the reason for it. It’s a grave problem. You know, I was in America doing a Course there and during the day there was, it was over lunch and there was a TV in that little room, and they made a announcement that Christopher Isherwood - I don't know if you heard the name, Christopher Isherwood, he's written many books, he's well known as a novelist, and he's worked with Swami Prabhavananda and others in writing books on the Vedanta philosophy and so many other books, and he's a very very good writer. And his Programme - now in America, you have TV going on twenty-four hours of the day, - and his Programme was coming on at four in the morning. So I, you know, I kept myself awake until four in the morning to listen to Christopher Isherwood. I thought here's this man, I've read some of his books, and I'm going to hear of his personal spiritual experiences, and you know all the things that he's written about and things like that. And I stayed awake till four in the morning but what should come up, he started talking of homosexuality. That's all because he you know admits, he says 'I am homosexual and I defend homosexuality.' And especially it's very rife in San Francisco. There's a very large population of them there and he was defending it. And he only spoke two sentences on the Vedanta. And I sat up the whole night listening to him. Ah, dear me. Good. Next? Questioner. What's your opinion of astrology? Gururaj. Um. Questioner.(Cont’d) Do you put any value on it at all?

12. UK 83- 23 Gururaj. I put no value on astrology at all. But I put value on the astrologer. Ahhh. You just cannot be guided by rules. Can you say the entire population of the world which is four thousand million people are only divided into twelve categories, according to the twelve Zodiac signs? No, no. It does not work that way. The books and the study of astrology can be used just to the extent of ten percent as a guide line, the ninety percent should be intuitional. So therefore I said, astrology is as good as the astrologer. So, if a person is highly intuitive - I do not need to draw up your chart, I can look at your face and tell you all about yourself, yeah. You know it's intuition that you rely upon. You rely upon that inner self, you stop using the left hemisphere of the brain which is analytical and thinking and numerical and works in symbols and things. You rely upon the right hemisphere of the brain, you see which is connected to the universal mind and that is where you get your intuition from. Right. Now this is - there's another thing which meditation does for you, I mean those of you that have not started meditating please do bear this in mind, that meditation and spiritual practices creates a greater synaptic control, you know when the neurons fire - I don't know if any of you people have studied the human brain - when the neurons fire, there's a greater control there where much more can be received from the right hemisphere of the brain to be interpreted through the left hemisphere of the brain, and meditation helps this you know creating a greater co-ordination and a greater control. So astrology is as good as the astrologer, that's what it is. I'll give you one example. Someone phoned me from a thousand miles away from where I am. I'm in Capetown and this person's is in Johannesburg and a very well known personality. He had a chart drawn up some years ago by somebody very famous and in this chart it said, that 'Don't get married because your marriage will only last for two years. So don't get married, it will be unhappy'. So then he in Johannesburg he met this girl, Ingrid, and they fell very much in love with each other. But meanwhile David was worried about this chart, it was playing on his mind. Must I get married or must I not? So he phones me and I looked at my diary, I said 'Look, I'll be free on such and such a day' and he flew down to me. And I read that chart and I tore it up into a thousand pieces and threw it into my wastepaper basket. I said 'David, this is all rubbish. Rooobish. (General laughter) You go back and propose to Ingrid and get married'. And this was about seven eight years ago. They are still happily married and they've got two lovely children. That's okay, they're fine, happy. They've got a beautiful home, he's got a beautiful job. Fine. So sometimes having these charts drawn can influence you psychologically, you know and can make you believe in things which are not true. And your very belief, your very thought can influence things. I've heard of some people that when they buy the newspaper in the morning, the first thing they go to is that horoscope thing. Yes, that's the first thing

13. UK 83- 23 they go to and if it says that they're going to have a miserable day or something or whatever, and they feel miserable the whole day. How can, how can thinking people ever be influenced by things like that? It's beyond me. Yeah. So that's what it is. I would never have, I would not advise anyone to have an astrological chart drawn up. Forget it. You live for the moment and whatever will come will come. And by you worrying five years ahead of what's going to come you might never see it, you might not even be alive. And meanwhile you're making your life a misery, worrying about it. It's not worth it. But the newspapers publish it, because it increases their circulation - business. So. Next? Questioner. Guruji, I heard someone saying, they were saying about Krishna on the battlefield was talking to Arjuna and he was saying to him that, about killing, that these men were already dead with their karma. Gururaj. These men are? Questioner. (Cont’d). Already dead with their karma. Gururaj. I've never heard that. Have you got it right? Questioner. (Cont’d). I don't know. It was something of that nature. Gururaj. No. I tell you what it is. I know exactly what you mean. That you are a soldier Arjuna and your duty in life is to fight because that is the job of a soldier. Now there is so much evil prevalent here now because of the Koruva clan and Arjuna used to belong to the Pandova clan, that there is so much corruption and evil, that to destroy this evil you will have to fight. But remember one thing, that you and all those others can never die because the soul within you is immortal. Water cannot wet it, fire cannot burn it, a sword cannot pierce it. So for the sake of good, a balance has to be brought about and in this particular instance, the balance can only come about if you go to war. Now that is according to the story - you can call it mythology. But there is a deeper meaning to that, an esoteric, philosophical, metaphysical meaning to that. Arjuna was the thinking mind and Krishna was the spirit within him. And kill away the evils of the mind and be that immortal self, the spirit. Many ways of looking at it. The husband was telling the wife, 'Oh please stop talking like an idiot'. So the wife replies, 'I have to talk like an idiot or else you won't understand me'. (General laughter)

14. UK 83- 23 And then of course this girl, this girl applied for a job, she was typist - you call them typists here, stenographers, typist? Voice. Typist. Gururaj. Typist. She applied for a job and of course the Personnel Manager asked her, 'What system of typing do you do?' So she says, 'I type in the Biblical system.' So the Personnel Manager says, 'It's the first time I heard of that'. So she says 'No, that's very easy, sir. Seek and thou shalt find.' (General laughter) Next question. Questioner. Does the soul enter a child at conception or at the moment of birth? I was wondering if the nine months i n the womb affects the child - you know the environment it's in, conversations around. Gururaj. Oh, yes. You know we've got - I've made quite a number of tapes on that. The soul does not enter the child at the moment of birth. The soul is there at the moment of inception, conception, rather, because all of us we seem to be so solid but we are not. We are very, very porous and there are millions of souls floating around us, going through us, entering us and out of us. And the souls that would be attracted to be around you, would be those of a very like nature, of which you are. So with this inner penetration of the soul throughout your entire system, naturally it would be firstly in th e sperm, in the seed which - that is why you know of this male supremacy thing, yeah. But they don't realise that the ground is just as important for the seed to grow. Fine. So it would part and parcel of the sperm which impregnates the ovum, so it is there at the time of impregnation. And of course it develops and oh a lot of things affect the child whilst in the womb. You must really get some tapes. Ask Dave and he'll find some tapes for you on how children are conceived, why they are conceived, what are the mechanics of the spirit and the soul and what is the difference between soul and spirit and the various mental and psychological ramifications involved in these things and the growth of the embryo and how the embryo is influenced you know by the thought patterns of the mother and the environment and what should be done and on and on. There's plenty of tapes on that, Dave, isn't there? Listen to them because it's a vast subject. Good. Next? Questioner. I sense a separation between the spiritual concerns that most people have and real life as it's organise d politically. I personally don't think that there ought to be this separation. Gururaj. You're right.

15. UK 83- 23 Questioner. (Cont’d) But I think that there's - maybe I'm picking up the wrong sorts of messages - but there seem to be implications within meditation that in the end you may be philosophical about the world's problems but I'd like to think that there's also some urgency to involve us in the real world, in political. Gururaj. Meditation is the real world and you can use those very energies in any sphere you like including the political. That's all there is. So simple. Once you gain those energies and once you learn to tap the sources, the resource of that energy within you, you can use it in anything. Like electricity, you put it into a fridge and you have coldness, and you put it into a heater and you'll have warmth. It's a neutral energy that you're tapping into. How you use it politically or otherwise? As a matter of fact I told someone earlier while we were having tea that politics is the profession of the second best. You can indulge in it if you like. And I didn't say that, I was quoting, I think it was Voltaire or Rousseau. The greatest profession in the world, or the greatest ideology one could ever had, or thought, is how to become one with God. Therefore I'm afraid of no politician. You bring me Margaret Thatcher, I'll give her a piece of my mind or the other oppositions. I'll tell them what I feel - finish. Why should I be afraid of it? Because there's so much conniving, there's so much you know behind the scenes that goes on, and so many things that go on that we don't know about because what do we know about? Only things we read in the newspapers. Yeah that's all. Meanwhile they could, if every politician should start meditating, it could be a better world. Yes, yes, yes. And yet again, everything as far as politics are concerned, the background is economics. All the wars are economics, everything is just economics, economics. You'll create fears so that the ammunition factories could work. And when the ammunition factories work, people get employment. When they get employment they get pay. That money is recycled in the economy of the country. And like that it goes on and on and on. And there's always been politics, all the time, all the time. Next? Questioner. Could you speak on the nature of love, Guruji, in so much as whether, it's people nearly always think of it as a soft thing. Is it, is it one inherent sort of quality, or could you just expand on what love actually is? Gururaj. Oh my, I could write ten volumes on that really. How to put that into a nutshell? To explain love is to explain God really, and I think I was speaking about love the whole morning, wasn't I. Yes, love is not a quality. A quality only comes from the mind. It's a mental quality. Love is a flow that comes from the heart, and what is the heart? Not this organ that's there, but the heart is the core of one's personality, your inner depth, and that is where love flows from, do

16. UK 83- 23 you see? So if the mind is made quite calm and more peaceful, then it gives that inner welling up to flow through that calm mind. But if the mind is filled with turbulence and things like that, then that inner love cannot flow through, see? S o therefore meditation, spiritual practices, prayer, these things help to still the mind, so that gives a, gives a chance for love to really flow through. You see? Love is quality-less, because quality, by applying a quality to love, you are limiting love, while love is infinite. It's something you can experience. And then many things people take for love is not really love. It's a feeling only. It's a, it's a limited emotion created within oneself because of need, need of a crutch, need of this need o f that. And yet it's one of the strongest instincts perhaps, if you wish to call it that, there's no better word, in man as love. Civilisations, countries have been destroyed because of love. Kings have abdicated because of love, so many things, because of love. Yes. It's a beautiful Divine madness, filled with joy indescribable. That's what it is. You know I've made many tapes on love. Ask that man there, going into the mechanics of it? As a matter of fact if this question was first this morning, then I would have you know tackled it from a totally different aspect. It's a very vast subject and not really for a Rapid Fire. But of course naturally I had to say a few words on it. This church minister was caught by the traffic warden and you know this was in America, where if you're speeding you know they trap you in so many different ways. So the traffic warden stops him speeding. So the traffic warden stops him speeding and so this church minister, although he's a minister, he's like any other human being, he says 'Look, I've seen no speed traps on the road, you know, and how can you say I was speeding, I haven't seen any radar or anything like that. How can you say I was speeding?' So the traffic policeman says 'You see that helicopter up there', - I don't think we have that in this country yet, have we? Do you, ah yes well. So of course the helicopter flying overhead was timing this car you know going at a terrific speed. So the traffic warden explains, 'Sir, we didn't have a radar, a speed trap, or the clocks but our helicopter there was timing you and you were speeding'. So he looks up, the minister, and he sees the helicopter and says, 'Oh well, whatever comes from heaven, I accept'. (General laughter). Next question. Questioner. Does your wisdom come from God, do you think, direct? Gururaj. Why don't you go and ask Him? Questioner. (Cont’d) All the things that you are telling us today are really coming from God's source.

17. UK 83- 23 Gururaj. Well, I don't know. I don't know, but one thing I do know, I've given about at least three thousand talks around the world and as those that are very close to me here will tell you, that I never remember what I talk about. If you ask me half an hour later 'Gururaj, what did you talk about?' I wouldn't know. It's only a few days later when I have a chance to listen to the tape that I would know, and I say 'Did I say that? Did I say that?' One thing I know, God or no God, but I know it comes from a far deeper layer of the mind, the superconscious level of the mind. Therefore you'd find I never ever prepare a lecture. I always say 'What would you like me to talk about?' And I've spoken at various Universities and amongst Academic Groups, Professors, what have you, and ordinary housewives, businessmen, all kinds of things and any question that comes up, the answer's there. Questioner.(Cont’d). But does that mean you're concerned with what you hear afterwards then? Gururaj. Pardon? Questioner.(Cont’d). When you said about listening to the tapes, are you concerned about some of the things you've said, that perhaps you wouldn't have said? Gururaj. No, I'm never concerned. I say 'Gee whiz! Gor blimey! That's good! (Gururaj laughs) Next? This young couple was getting married, they were in front of the altar, so the Minister went on, 'For better or for worse, for richer or poorer, and in sickness and in health'. So the young lady whispers to the Minister, 'Please don't go on like that, Sir, you might talk him out of it.' (General laughter) Oh must I tell you the one about the two nuns, that's a very funny one. I think I've said it somewhere before, I didn't here, I don't suppose here. These two nuns were travelling and they ran out of petrol. Now the garage was about half a mile away, so they had to have a container. So the only thing they could find in the car was a chamberpot, - you know what a chamberpot it is, you call it here that, the same? - Right. Fine. So they took this chamberpot to the garage and had it filled up, and they came back to the car and they were pouring it into the tank. Meanwhile there were a few young rookies, young soldiers just about passing there, trainee soldiers passing there. So they stood there looking at this performance of the nun pouring in the petrol. So he couldn't help himself and he says;'Excuse me madam, I don't think this will work out but I do admire your faith'. (Genera laughter) Anymore, or shall we call it a day?

18. UK 83- 23 Questioner. Just very quickly. You said you'd say anything to any of the politicians and that most of the problems are economic. What would you say about the deeper issues behind unemployment and why there are so many people in the world, in China it's increasing and various places at a very considerable rate, and yet paid employment as we know it at the moment, there isn't enough for people. Gururaj. It is a tragedy, isn't it? I told Mrs Gandhi, that's Indira Gandhi, the Prime Minister of India when I met her in the States - she came to get a loan - I told her, why must she come with hat in hand, to other countries to get loans. Why can't you get those fields, thousands and thousands of square miles of them, into greater productivity. Why don't you get those factories producing at a far greater level. India needs today, I told her, a bit of dictatorship. You'll have to be hard to get them working. And that is what many countries need, a bit of hardness. You just cut down your dole in America, I don't know very much about that - I mean England - I don't know very much about it, but cut down the percentage and you'll see, those people will find some job or the other, cut it down. And that is hard, it sounds cruel, but sometimes it's kind to be you know, cruel to be kind, kind to be cruel. It would work that way because if a person is going without food, he's definitely going to make some plan. That is how unemployment can decrease. But if they are fed, - one person working in a factory told me this, - he used to work in a chemical factory and he developed some kind of skin disease - and he tells me that he used to earn about fifty five pounds working in this factory and he was put off from work and now on the dole he is getting sixty pounds. So do you think he'll feel like working, when he's getting more that way? Now I don't know if this applies generally because I do not know know your economic structure, I'm a stranger here. But there are times when a bit of hardness is needed and there are times when more gentleness is needed, do you see. But in a very prosperous, highly industrialised country like this or America, you know there should be no issue of unemployment at all. Something is wrong somewhere. Is it the people’s mentality or is it the governmental structure? There is something wrong somewhere. Remember England, a small little place like that, that could fit on top of a pinhead really, you know, could have ruled the world, the British Empire but controlled the sea with its naval might, that ruled so many countries, a powerful empire, a small little country like this so there people have something in them. And as I was telling some people that England is a little offshoot when Atlantis sank, a little piece broke off which became England. And there's so much, there's such power and force here or else how could those people run such a vast Empire. There is something here, but something has gone wrong. So meditate, do spiritual practices and will bring everything right. Questioner. Do you think each nation goes through its own karma then?

19. UK 83- 23 Gururaj. Yes, true. True. Why are we talking of politics? (General laughter). Look I am no politician. I'm a mystic, I'm a metaphysician. Nevertheless, it's all fun, isn't it? One should talk about things that baffles one. Questioner. When people are young they find it easier to love and to feel the emotion of the love and tears fall more easily. As people get older they feel less the emotion of love and they cry less. What would this indicate to you? Gururaj. Is that a fact? I don't know that. I suppose I'm not old enough yet (General laughter) and I only speak from experience otherwise you would not be coming from my heart. I could intellectualise and that but I don't. I find a lot of old people that are very, very loving people, a lot of old people. Questioner. Why do they not cry as easy as when they're younger? Gururaj. Perhaps they don't cry just as easily because they've developed the maturity in themselves to say 'Look, it's worthless crying over this or that. It's worthless crying over spilt milk.' It's because of the maturity and greater amount of stability or senility. (Gururaj laughs) It's about six now. Shall we end now? Voice. I think we should finish now. Gururaj. Yes, yah. Thank you very much. It's been so nice being here in Glastonbury and meeting you good people. So my love to you all and God bless. And you know the word goodbye, it means 'God be with you', that's how it originated, goodbye. So God be with you, and see you soon. I'll be coming to England again in May and try and come to the Course if you can, because once you sit down and follow up a whole series of talks and things and other spiritual practices, here we just did meditation. I mean you can't do everything in a way, and all different kinds of spiritual practices where you could really experience things. And that's what you need, not intellectualisation but experience. Look you can take sugar as I always say and send it a laboratory and they'll tell you all the chemical components of sugar, but they can't tell you anything about sweetness, you've got to taste it yourself. So it should be experiential. So try and come to the Course in May. I mean of course Newsletters will be coming out and it would be a good idea with our meditators

20. UK 83- 23 increasing here, just to have a one page Newsletter perhaps once a quarter or so, to keep them informed, meditators about things. Voice. We're trying to do that in the regions now.............................. (Inaudible) Gururaj. Oh that's very good. Beautiful. Lovely. That's how it should be. Oh well. END

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